Volume 34 Number 22
                 Produced: Fri Feb  2  6:35:56 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Burial of  body parts/ Burial of a fetus
         [David Kaye]
Can of Peas (4)
         [Gershon Dubin, Zev Sero, Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz, Carl
Can of Peas is a can of worms
         [Janet Rosenbaum]
Kashruth of Canned Vegetables
         [Joshua Hosseinof]
         [Yisroel Finman]
Kosher Thoughts
         [Jonah Bossewitch]
Mi Sheberach
         [Yehoshua Berkowitz]
Sefer Ha'mitzvot
         [Howard M. Berlin]
Water and Cigarettes
         [A. Seinfeld]


From: David Kaye <David.Kaye@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:31:58 +0100
Subject: Burial of  body parts/ Burial of a fetus

   With regards to surgical removal of body parts, halacha requires that
any organ or limb containing basar, gidim, v'atazomos be
buried. Therefore, internal soft tissue organs (e.g. gallbladder,
kidney, lung, etc.) do not require burial. A limb does require
burial. Of course any part of a corpse must be buried.

With regards to the issue of burial of a fetus/fetal demise, sadly this
is a shaila I have had to deal with far too often. For those interested
I suggest you see as some examples: Sanhedrin 46b; Tosefta Ohalos 16:6;
Pesachim 9a; A.Z. 42a; Hag. Maimoni Milah 1:10; Niddah 57a; Magen
Avraham 526:20; Shut.  Mishkenos Yaakov O.C. 526:5; Shut. Nodah Beyuhuda
Y.D.M.K. 90,164; Shut.  She'ailas Yaavatz 141; Shut. Chasam Sofer
O.C. 144; Shut. Minchas Elazar 42; Shut. Avnei Tzedek Y.D. 145; Bina
L'Itim Hilchos Yom Tov 1:23; Shut. Binyan Tzion 119; Shut. Maharsham

B'virkas HaTorah

Y. Dovid Kaye


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:01:55 -0500
Subject: Can of Peas

Now that (I think) we've determined that Halacha requires us to do what
we can to avoid nonkosher food, I would like to call attention to an
article on why canned vegetables need kashrus supervision.  The article
is in the current edition of Kashrus magazine whose web site is
http://www.kashrusmagazine.com/; however the article itself is not on


From: Zev Sero <Zev@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:40:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Can of Peas

Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...> wrote:

> As far as the can of peas: I personally have no problem eating a
> can without a hechsher, based on my understanding from my rabbi
> that this is not a problem (I hate canned peas, but that's another
> story).  The peas are not cooked and then canned but rather canned
> and then cooked.  If someone has good information on the process
> and why it should require hashgocho they should please post it.

Here's one: what else is being cooked in the same vat at the same time?
Can treifness be conducted from the contents of the treif can, through
its metal walls, the liquid or steam in which the two cans are being
cooked, and the metal walls of the kosher can, into the peas?

Another consideration: in the USA, where manufacturers are very aware of
the existence of the kosher market, and almost everything has at least a
K, if a product doesn't even claim to be kosher it makes me very
suspicious.  If even the manufacturer doesn't claim that the peas are
kosher, I feel that there's likely to be something wrong with them.

Zev Sero

From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahem@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:56:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Can of Peas

> From: Chihal <chihal@...>
>         Quite so, IMHO. The two prime examples -- which were discussed a
> long time ago -- are the hechsher (kosher) symbol on one brand of bottled
> water -- and the hechsher on some Israeli cigarettes.

As I remember the discussion, there were several points that were made

1. Some manufacturers want the hechsher symbol even if it is not
required (for marketing purposes).  IMHO there is nothing wrong with
stating that an item is kosher even without the symbol and that is why
the symbol is there.

2. Some products that appear to not require a hechsher may indeed do so.
For example, what if bottled water is purified by a process that would
actually make it traif.

Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore" | Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
 Jews are the fish, Torah is our water | Zovchai Adam, agalim yishakun

From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:01:54 EST
Subject: Can of Peas

It seems that we've beaten our can of peas into the ground -- in season,
I enjoy fresh peas from our garden, and presuming that there are no
issues w/ genetically altered varieties ....

I think there is a legitimate issue, perhaps one of kashruth or perhaps
one dealing more in the social sphere among various groups (or shades?)
of observant Jews.  That is the "frum" brands.

I remember sitting across the Shabbos tish from three young (late teens,
early 20's and unmarried) hassidim and when the conversation turned that
way, one said he'd rather pay the extra five cents for plony's (a frum
brand that I had never heard of) than Yenim's (a national brand with a
hechsher) potato chips.  His reasoning is that he wanted to provide
parnuseh (income) to a frum Jewish firm which, in turn, gives greatly to
tzedukah.  I suggested that he could buy Wise's and put the nickle in
the pushkeh -- thus cutting out the middle man.

I guess this brings up several questions.  (I will use Plony to
represent, Hadar, Streits, etc. -- the "frum brands" -- and yes, I know
there are differences among them.  Similarly, I will use "Yenims" to
indicate national brands, supermarket store brands, etc. w/ say OU,
StarK, ChofK, etc.)

1 - for the "expert" is kosher food production -- when I see plony brand
peas on the store shelf, next to yenims -- what is the difference re:
their processing / supervision.  Could they come from the same batch,
with two different labels.  In fact is there a difference re: kashruth
-- going beyond the issues of specific standards of the various
hasgochas.  And for simplicity, let's talk about peas, not meats,
flavorings, etc.

(My wife once took her class on a field trip and a pretzel manufacturer
had 3 different bags at the end of the production line -- two had
hasghochas, one didn't -- but I'm not talking hasgocha / no hasgocha,
I'm talking plony brand / yenims brand.)

2 - although it's unlikely that I'll put the can, itself, on the table
when serving guests -- but perhaps I'll bump into a "friend" at the
checkout line -- what are the social implications of my having Plony or
Yenims in my shopping cart, my pantry, etc.  What are the social
implications?  Is there a "we only use plony's" chevra around.

3 - what are the business / communcal implications of the plony brands,
and stores that stock plony but not yenims.  I.e., is that nickel going
to tzedukah?

Kol Tov

Carl Singer


From: Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:47:20 +0200
Subject: Can of Peas is a can of worms

I don't understand what the purpose of this thread is.

If someone needs to know which foods need hekshers, they should ask a
rabbi who specializes in such matters or consult a website such as
www.kosherquest.org.  There is a list of foods which do not require
hekshers at:


Canned vegetables are not on the list either way.  I don't eat canned
vegetables except tomatoes (which definitely require heksher because
they are on same equipment as clams), so I have never had occasion to
ask about canned peas.  Frozen peas are fine without heksher.



From: Joshua Hosseinof <hosseino@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:12:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Kashruth of Canned Vegetables

See http://www.star-k.org/kkfall00/kosher.html for a very informative
article on the kashruth of canned vegetables.  The only question left
unanswered to me is why it should even be an issue if the same equipment
processes traif food in cans.  The way the canning process works, the
cans are hermetically sealed and then cooked in large pressure cookers
called retorts, or they are steamed.  In any case, the cans are
hermetically sealed, so are we saying that the steel is permeable, so if
a can of peas is cooked at the same time as a can of pork and beans, or
on the same equipment that pork and beans was once cooked on, then the
can of peas is somehow getting flavor from the pork and beans.  So the
missing link in understanding the kashruth problems of cans is, do we
consider a hermetically sealed steel can to be permeable?

Joshua Hosseinof


From: Yisroel Finman <NISHMAT@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:44:33 EST
Subject: Re: Kosher

      From: Isaac A Zlochower <zlochoia@...>

 It is my understanding that canned products are cooked in sealed cans
 in a batch process.  That is, an entire batch of the product is cooked,
 cooled, and labelled.  What, then, would make the innocuous contents of
 those cans, e.g. peas, water, and salt, treif?  Even if canned veggies
 and treif cans were together in the same autoclave oven, wouldn't there
 be a heter of "nat bar nat bar nat" (from the tarfut to its can walls,
 from those cans to the water, from the water to the veggie can walls,
 and from them to the veggies)?  It seems to me that the use of such
 canned vegetables without any hashgacha is a long-standing practice.
 Those who would change that should bring some evidence of a problem.
 The advent of canned vegetables with hashgacha stems from the Pesach
 line of products which addressed the special dietary restrictions of
 the chag, rather than any specific kashrut problems.  I wonder what is
 different about the canning process used for the Hadar, Unger,
 etc. canned veggies that would make it more kosher for year-around use?

re: canned vegies.  Plain canned vegies, despite POLICY changes by the
national kashruth agencies, remain innocuos.

The exceptions are potatoes, tomatoes and canned beans. These factories
routinely process meat products as well. Plain vegies like peas or corn
and plain fruits like peaches or apricots are canned in factories that
are located in the areas of the country that grow that specific
produce. They can exclusively during the harvest season.

re: rennet all large scale commercial non kosher cheese companies as
well as all kosher certified cheese operations use recombinant
rennet. The original rennet was put up about fifteen years ago and it
keeps reproducing. The excess is harvested and sold as rennet. Prior to
that, non kosher rennet was extracted from animal stomachs and kosher
rennet was synthesized from vegetables.  if anything, we can now make a
case for all commercial cheese in America being acceptable because if
all rennet is kosher then it follows that all cheese should be kosher.
Tosefos' requirement for a mashgiach being present at the time that the
rennet is added is to insure that kosher rennet is used, since the
final product, cheese, looks the same regardless of the source of the


Rabbi Yisroel Finman
Chai Kosher Consultations


From: Jonah Bossewitch <jonah@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:09:42 -0500
Subject: Kosher Thoughts

In recent months I have observed, both on this mailing list and in the
Jewish community amongst which I live, an incredible amount of devotion
to the mitzvah of Kashrut.

I fear that some well intentioned Jews are investing an unbalanced
proportion of their finite energy into this particular commandment and
would like to propose the following theory:

Could it be that the people who are devoting an inordinate amount of
attention to what goes into their mouths are
subconsciously/psychologically/karmically compensating for the LaShon
Ha'Rah that is coming out of their mouths?

Imagine how the social landscape in your community would differ if
1/10th of the time and energy that is currently consumed by Kashrut
related concerns were redirected to purifying our speech... If only we
cared as much about the kashrut of what comes out of our mouths as that
which goes in.... etc

just a thought

- Rafi


From: Yehoshua Berkowitz <RYehoshua@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:20:00 EST
Subject: Re: Mi Sheberach

Has anyone seen a priority list in making a mi sheberach after receiving
an aliyah?  Does your wife come first?  Do you list your parents before
your children?  Should the Rav be mentioned first or last?  I would
appreciate sources for reference or further research.

(Rabbi) Yehoshua Berkowitz


From: Howard M. Berlin <berlin@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:54:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Sefer Ha'mitzvot

Does anyone know if the Rambam's Sefer Ha'mitzvot (The Book of Divine 
Commandments) is available in English? If so, where?


 /~~\\       ,    , ,                          Dr. Howard M. Berlin, W3HB


From: A. Seinfeld <aseinfeld@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:01:19 -0800
Subject: Re: Water and Cigarettes

> Quite so, IMHO. The two prime examples -- which were discussed a
> long time ago -- are the hechsher (kosher) symbol on one brand of bottled
> water -- and the hechsher on some Israeli cigarettes.
> Good grief, Charlie Brown!

Don't know about the cigarettes, but according to my kashrus guru,
bottled water is often filtered with traife materials which l'hathila
would be a problem according to some opinions.

A. Seinfeld


End of Volume 34 Issue 22