Volume 34 Number 61
                 Produced: Wed May 23  7:44:12 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Baruch Hashem le'olam
         [Mike Gerver]
Dairy Meals and Shavuot
         [Ari Y. Weintraub]
Dairy on Shavuot (2)
         [W. Baker, David Glasner]
Dairy on Shavu'ot .. and meat and wine on Shabbat and Yom tov?
         [Joseph Bachman]
Ibn Ezra and out of print sefarim
         [David Hojda]
No More Na'aseh V'nishma?
         [Seth Lebowitz]
Size of Measurements
         [Eli Turkel]
Tefila Phraseology
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Tfila Phraseology
         [Mark Symons]
Throwing Candy
         [Russell Hendel]


From: Mike Gerver <Mike.Gerver@...>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:22:19 +0200
Subject: Baruch Hashem le'olam

Immanuel Burton (or O'Levy?) asks in v34n42,
> If one says that one should follow the custom of one's home town and so
> keep two days in Israel, should one also say the extra paragraph of
> Boruch Hashem Le'olam in maariv?

When I visited Israel a couple of years before I made aliyah, I asked a
shayla, and was told not to say "Baruch Hashem le'olam" in maariv, even
though that was my minhag at home, since it would be considered a hefsek
[interruption in davening].  When I recently visited the US for the
first time since making aliyah, I never got around to asking about the
reverse case, so wasn't sure whether to say it.  The first couple of
nights I said "Baruch Hashem le'olam" without even thinking about it,
even though I hadn't said it for 10 months, because I was davening in a
place where I was so used to saying it.  After that, when I did think
about it, and still hadn't to remembered to ask the shayla, I decided
not to say it, since it would be better not to follow my minhag than to
risk making a bracha mevatala or hefsek.  Of course, when I was shliach
tzibbur at maariv one night, I followed the minhag of the shul and did
say it.

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Ari Y. Weintraub <aweintra@...>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:39:18 -0400
Subject: Dairy Meals and Shavuot

To add to the reasons already enumerated on the list, I saw the following in
the sefer Moed L'chol Chai (from Rav Chaim Palag'i) - the translation is
	"[Regarding the] custom of eating milk on Shavuos and then meat [it
is] in order to demonstrate that we separate [milk from meat] and the
malachim (when they came to visit Avraham Avinu - AYW) and they therefore
did not merit the Torah, [whereas] we did. See Toras Chaim Bava Metzia 86
D"H "d'kama kama"."
	He also records the ta'am of shiva nekiim v'dam naaseh chalav, that
of "Devash v'chalav tachas leshonech", and that the roshei taivos of the
words "mincha chadasha la'Shem b'shavuoseichem" spell out "me'chalav". The
final reason he quotes is that of zecher l'shtay halechem.

A gutten Yom Tov!


From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:10:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dairy on Shavuot

I have been enjoying all the discussion of why we traditionally eat
dairy on Shavuot and have a few, what may appear to be simple, or dumb
questions.  In the midbar, didn't the Jews exist on that G-d given food
mon?  Where does all this discussion of eating meat come from?  No doubt
they had cattle brought from Mitzraim that must have also eaten mon but
they does not appear to have been eaten or how do we explain the
hullabaloo over the demand for meat and the episode of the quails?

I don't know what the answer is, but I like the concept of the
plentifullness of milk from newly freshened cows, goat, sheep etc., all
the fresh cheeses once again available as some basis for celebrating
this momentous day with happy feasting of all the rich dairy foods.  If
our customs resemble those of the people we live among, it is not
surprising.  I would imagine that it is quite universal for human beings
to revel in the abundance of the dairy products and first fruits at this
time of the year.  Since when is a good savory cheesy lukshin kugel and
some cheesecake less celebratory than a hamburger and fries?

Wendy Baker

From: David Glasner <DGLASNER@...>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:54:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Dairy on Shavuot

I wrote (34:54):
<<< Indeed, even according to R.  Yishmael it
is not so clear that meat slaughtered via shehitah by a non-Jew would
not have been permissible right after matan torah, because the
prohibition against eating meat slaughtered by a gentile may well be
only rabbinic, based on a fear that meat slaughtered by a gentile would
have been slaughtered with some idolotrous intent.  >>>

Rabbi E.M. Teitz kindly pointed out to me off-line that the above
statement is not correctly stated.  It is Biblicallly prohibited to eat
meat slaughtered by an idolotrous Gentile.  There is a question,
however, concerning the source for this prohibition.  Tosafot argue that
the prohibition is based on the verse v'zavahta . . . v'akhalta in
D'varim 12:20-21.  However, this derivation is problematic for a number
of reasons, for example, one would fulfill the obligation to sit in a
sukkah built by a Gentile even though it is written sukkot ta'asseh
l'kha.  The Rambam (shehitah 4:12) therefore cites a different proof
text "v'kara l'kha v'akhalt mi-zivho."  However, the Rambam restricts
the biblical prohibition to an idolotrous Gentile, but says that
rabbinically there is a prohibition even on the shehitah of a
non-idolotrous Gentile.

I should add that Rabbi Teitz also disagreed with several other points
that I made, but, although some of my statements may have be debatable,
I don't believe that anything else I wrote was incorrect, especially
since I hope that everything I wrote faithfully reflected the position
of the Dor Revi'i.  Speaking of whom, may I remind everyone to look up
the Dor Revi'i website for two wonderful divrei torah for Shavuot, which
should be posted no later than Thursday May 24.  

I will forbear closing with any of the puns that are now clanging around
my mind and instead just wish everyone hag samei'ah.

David Glasner


From: Joseph Bachman <jbachman@...>
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:31:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dairy on Shavu'ot .. and meat and wine on Shabbat and Yom tov?

>According to HaRambam, the meals of YomTob must be joyous ones and as he
>says prescribed by the Torah and therefore all holiday meals must
>consist of meat and wine.

How strict is this obligation to consume "meat and wine" on Shabbat and
Yom Tov?  For one, I know many Orthodox vegetarians who don't consume
meat on Shabbat and Yom Tov. I have also observed many of my hosts at
the Shabbat or Yom Tov table, many of whome are pretty frum indeed, make
kiddush with grape juice, or perhaps with such a small amount of wine
mixed in with the juice that it might as well be grape juice.

If the requirement is that the meals of Yom Tov are to be "joyous,"
wouldn't there be a problem with eating meat and drinking wine if

1) you disliked the taste of meat or wine, or 

2) consumption of meat or wine was unhealthy for you.  Perhaps you need
to watch your saturated fats, or wine gives you a headache, or you are
prone to alcoholism and thus need to avoid wine entirely?



From: David Hojda <dhojda1@...>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:28:27 -0400
Subject: re: Ibn Ezra and out of print sefarim

>>but there was a 14th century commentary by Yosef Bonfils
>>that was well known and reprinted many years ago (it is now out of

R' Yosef Bonfil's perush, Zafnat Paneach, is available in bound
photocopied form from Bigeleisen's Book Shop in Boro Park.

The sefer may have to be custom-ordered, which means that the copy shop
that has the master copy will have to run it off and bind it for you.

Incidentally, many out-of-print sefarim are available through the
Biegeleisen/Copy Shop arrangement .

Before anyone gets excited about the copyright issues, these are
important sefarim that will never be reprinted due to very low demand
and are from long-deceased authors.


From: Seth Lebowitz <SLebowitz@...>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:12:32 -0400
Subject: No More Na'aseh V'nishma?

Zev Sero wrote:
"...and on the other hand we know that [B'nei Yisrael] were studying
Torah even in Mitzrayim, and certainly in the desert before Matan

I always found it inspirational that our ancestors had such faith and
devotion to God that they proclaimed "na'aseh vinishma" in advance to
whatever they might be commanded in the Torah.  It certainly is
disappointing to find out that they knew what was in the Torah before
they said "na'aseh vinishma".

Best wishes:

Seth Lebowitz


From: Eli Turkel <Eli.Turkel@...>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:31:59 +0200
Subject: Size of Measurements

>  The "new measurements" popularlized by the Nodeh B'Yehuda and the
> Chazon Ish, were unknown to the Jews of the Middle ages, Rennaissance,
> and Modern periods.
> 1.  The Noda B'Yehuda's (R. Yehezkel Halevi Landau) dates are
> 1713-1793.  If he popularized them, as Andrew says, then they have
> been "popular" for maybe 250 years, before the "Rupture".  The Chazon
> Ish simply follows the Noda B'Yehuda, or, better, comes to the same
> conclusion.

However, even those who followed Nodah B'Yehuda had varying practical
implementations. From memory (notorious) that in Franfort the shiur
was larger than in most other places.

> 2.  This should be obvious, but I'll say it anyway: the Hazon Ish did
> not imply anything about stringency or leniency.  He simply thought
> that these measurements are correct.  For example, according to him,
> you can walk much further on Shabbat than you can according to
> R. Hayim Naeh.

I am pretty sure that both Noda B'Yehuda and Chazon Ish stated their
shiurim only for chumra and not for kula.  As indicated they arrive at
this measurement because of contradictions bewteen two sets of
measurements and therefore according to them one need always go for the
chumra which may mean either the smaller or larger value depending on
the circumstance.

> 3.  In the case of measurements, we can't simply "follow the mesorah"
> because there seems to be a logical contradiction between some of the
> halakhic units of measurements.  So we know there is an interruption
> in the mesorah.  It was the effort to resolve the contradiction which
> led to the Noda Beyehuda's ruling.

But  Rav Ovadiah Yosef and most other sefardi poskim insist that
they have an uninterrupted mesorah which is the same as R. Chaim Naeh.

BTW there have been several articles recently bringing various
archaelogical proofs that seem to agree more with R. Chaim Naeh.  One is
the size of Chiziyahu's tunnel and another is the dimensions of the
Temple mount.

Eli Turkel


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:35:16 +0300
Subject: Re: Tefila Phraseology

Steven White <StevenJ81@...> wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 34 #58 Digest:

>I've been starting to hear
>"hu ya'ase shalom aleinu, v'al kol yisrael" in Kaddish a lot lately.
>(Ditto the Aramaic verse that precedes, although v'hayyim does have to
>be disjunctive.)  I understand the reasoning:

The Mehaber and the Mishna Berura perhaps also understood the reasoning,
and in Siman 123, paragraph 1, the SA tells us that aleinu goes with
shalom, when the one who recites it is facing to the left, and the bows
forward to end with v`al kol . . .

The MB in sa`if qatan 5, ageres and even points to (and rejects) the
erroneous way that some people join aleinu with v'al kol Yisrael.

The Ben Ish Hai expresses the same requirement in Beshallah, Ot 24.

I think that the point is that the sentence has three parts: a) HKBH
makes peace above; b) May He make peace for us; c) May he make peace for
all Israel.  And that is the way we are directed to read it.

In the same vein, we have important halakhic decisors forbidding the
repetition of words in prayers written without repetition, and most
particularly when a biblical verse is involved.  Many hazzanim and
shelihei tzibbur observe this rule in the beach.  And in modern times,
Harav Shelomo Goren used to "drive his hazzanim crazy" by insisting that
they desist from such a practice.

                 IRA L. JACOBSON


From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:28:05 +1000
Subject: Tfila Phraseology

And while on the example of Yehallelu, most people, at least in the
Shules where I davven, start the response incorrectly as: HODU (Al ERETZ
VESHAMAYIM) instead of HODO, which gives it a completely different

Some others: Yimloch Hashem LeOlam Elokayich Tzion, LeDor Vador
Halleluka (instead of the correct: Yimloch Hashem LeOlam, Elokayivh
Tziyon Ledor Vador, Halleluka.

Barchenu Babracha, Hameshuleshet Batorah, (instead of the correct:
Barchenu Babracha Hameshuleshet, Batorah Haketuvah al Yedei Moshe

Mark  Symons
Melbourne Australia


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:18:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Throwing Candy

In Response to Michael Rogovin who mentions how he received a black and
blue eye at a wedding from a thrown bag of candy, (v34n55) I would just
like to reiterate, something mentioned a while back in Mail Jewish.

WHile I was in Philadelphia I saw that the Rabbis of one of the
synagogues instituted a trap door in the ceiling which showered candy at
appropriate simchas without force. All throwing was prohibited. The
reason given was that it is prohibited to cause damage and it is
prohibited to raise ones hand against another person.

Such an approach is fully consistent with Jewish Law and should be more
widely adopted

Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d. A.S.A.
Visit my Mail Jewish archives at http://www.RashiYomi.Com/mj.htm


End of Volume 34 Issue 61