Volume 34 Number 72
                 Produced: Thu Jun  7  7:03:35 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Learning NACH
         [Idelle Rudman]
Minchas Eluzer and the Reasons for Anti-Zionism
         [Paul Merling]
On-line Posek (4)
         [Daniel M Wells, Stuart Wise, Gershon Dubin, Michael Horowitz]
Shabbas afternoon and Natilias Yadiam
         [Gershon Dubin]
Washing Dishes on Shabbos
         [Batya Medad]
Washing hands after a nap, immediately before hamotzi
         [Andrew Klafter]


From: Idelle Rudman <rudmani@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:23:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Learning NACH

My father told me that as a young yeshiva bochur, he read Nach every
Shabbos afternoon.  This was the leisure reading allowed, and of course
the knowledge so acquired was then integrated into the general
"learning."  Therefore, the European generation of yeshiva bochurim were
NOT ignorant of Nach.  The transition to America, and the different
society does not allow the time for Nach.  It has been denigrated as a
subject of study only because the atmosphere is a changed one.  In
Israel, it is not a subject of study in the yehivot because, again, the
bochurim are expected to do it on their own time, as they have the basic
language skills.

In fact, many halakhot are learned from incidents in Nach.  Therefore,
anyone who aspires to heights of learning will certainly learn Nach.

Idelle Rudman, MLS, MA, Librarian		    tel: 212-213-2230 x119 
Touro College, Women's Division                     fax: 212-689-3515
Graduate School of Jewish Studies	            <rudmani@...>
160 Lexington Avenue, New York, NY  10016


From: Paul Merling <MerlingP@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:21:42 -0400 
Subject: Minchas Eluzer and the Reasons for Anti-Zionism

   Paul , Judy or Miriam Shaviv write " The issue of pre-empting the
Messiah and of the 'Three vows' really only emerged as a major
anti-Zionist theme as late as the 1950's, with the publication of the
late Satmarer Rebbe's sefer 'Vayoel Moshe'."

  Although I agree with almost all they say, I am not sure that the
above statement is correct. When I attended the Lakewood Yeshiva, I
heard the following story about the Rosh Yeshiva, Reb Ahron Zatsal,
which took place a few years before the Second World War at the
Marienbad Kiniseah Gidola. The big question everyone was debating at
that time was the stance the Aguda should take if the Zionists succeeded
in establishing a state. During a private meeting with other Askanim and
members of the Moetses, there was a speaker who spoke favorably of the
possible state.  Reb Ahron became enraged and started banging on the
table, saying "it is forbidden, it is forbidden." It is well known that
Reb Ahron and Reb Elchonon Wasserman, H"YD were seen as representatives
of Reb Chaim Ozeir Zatsal during this conference. So I would infer that
many Gedolim were of the opinion that the founding of a Medina/Jewish
state was forbidden. I must admit that I do not know why Reb Ahron and
the other giants forbade the establishment of the state. However after
the state was founded most of the Lithuanian Gedolim felt that one could
participate in the state as it was no worse than a non-Jewish state. The
Satmar Rav Zatsal and those who followed him differed in that they
forbade participation even after the state was founded.

   Although I have not seen the Seforim on this issue for some time, my
memory tells me that Reb Elchonon and also Reb Ruvein of Beis Medrish
Elyon (Reb Boruch Ber's son-in-law) were strongly opposed to Jewish
nationalism and Reb Elchonon even called it Avoda Zarah/idolatry. This
may have been the grounds for Reb Ahron's prohibition.

    Concerning the Dovev Sifrei Yeshanim, I am told that although the
writer was guilty of adding and falsifying and Kol Hamosif Goreia, yet
many if not most of the quotes are accurate.

     In general, the Aliya to Erets Yisrael was encouraged strongly by
all religious authorities as long as there was no major downside. The
Satmar Rav himself tried to live in Erets Yisrael before the war and he
also lived there before he came to the United States. He had many
Chasidim there and of course the Edah Hachareidis is based there. From
all that I have heard and read, his sometime objection to people
settling there was always pragmatic, either the individuals had no
livelihood there or they were in spiritual danger, never on purely
ideological grounds. People always asked him as individuals and
families. However, he would have answered negatively to the hypothetical
question whether all Jews should make Aliya at once and as a group.

     The question of the founding of a Jewish State and the removal of
all Jews from the Golah before the coming of the Messiah is a totally
separate issue and should not be confused with the holiness of and
Mitsva to settle in Erets Yisrael.


From: Daniel M Wells <wells@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:28:57 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: On-line Posek

> Does anyone know of a reliable POSEK knowledgable in NIDAH questions who
> can discretely answer questions by e-mail.  We live in a city where we
> are well known to all resident rabbis who could help, but for reasons of
> tzniut ( modesty ) would like to try an on-line solution.

On-Line solutions are ideal for clear cut descisions. But as I am sure
you realize, nida questions are rarely so, and a great amount depends on
personal 1 to 1 discussion.

Just as a woman revealing her private organs to a male doctor during a
consultation does not come within the bounds of tzniut, so too nidda
questions to a rav.

As a matter of practicality, how on earth can a rav check bedika cloths
or underwear on-line. Are you going to try scanning it in?????

Here are some practical solutions if you really do prefer not to face
the rav especially with bedika cloths and/or underwear.

1. make sure that the rav is competent in nidda questions. Not every rav
is, or even claims to be. Find out from one of the gadolim/in-the know
in your city. If not try a different city.

2. Arrange to send him the cloths/underwear either by mail or messenger
with a secret code (eg a 4 digit number) attached to the cloth etc. Each
item should be marked with date, time (before/after shkiah), if it is a
'moch' and proximaty to start of veset.  Include date when veset
started, if relevant.

3. Make sure to call in the evening, identifying yourself with the
secret code,after he should have received it and had time to see it.

4. If it's underwear, find a way to retrieve them or tell the rav to
dispose of them. Perhaps send a messenger to the rebbitzen.

This method is often used by rabbonim who prefer not having to have 1 to
1 conversations with women, even in an unlocked, door ajar, office.

However establishing a good rapporport with a rav is absolutely
essential to spiritual growth, and thus a person should have no more
fear of the rav in asking niddah questions then in asking shabbos
questions. And moreover with this rappoport, the rav will find it much
easier to make decisions knowing the type of person you are. The
solution he offers you might be completely different for someone else
with an identical problem.


From: Stuart Wise <swise@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:24:52 -0700
Subject: Re: On-line Posek

While I can appreciate one's modesty, I think you need to reassess your
problem.  If you call your Rav, you need not identify yourself.  And
even if he did recognize your voice, one should not be embarrassed to
ask the shaila.  When it comes to a shaila on a bedikah cloth, I handle
all those by going to a rav who may know my name, but he always checks
it discreetly out of the sight of others.

It is important to realize that you have confidence in the rav or
rabbanim to whom you pose shailos and realize that they receive numerous
such questions.  You need to believe that even if they know you, if they
are trustworthy, your call will be between you and him.  I would suggest
giving it a try.

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:04:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: On-line Posek

Re: the request for a posek to answer she'ailos by email since the
requester is known to the rabbonim in his city.

1.  So what?  This is part of the process of learning Torah.
2.  I think there are probably many many more poskim with telephones
than with email. Make a long distance call if you feel the need to go
outside of your area. 


From: Michael Horowitz <michaelh1@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:15:23 -0000
Subject: On-line Posek

Halacha states we should make for ourselves a Rav to ask our halachic
questions.  The laws of modesty do not direct us to ask our halachic
questions of Rabbonim who do not know our name.  It is very important
that ones knows ones Rabbi, and visa versa well.

This is an issue where being "strict" in tzniut could very well be a
violation of halacha.


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:50:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Shabbas afternoon and Natilias Yadiam

From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>

<<I went to an early Mincha this past Shabbas. Upon coming home I went to
sleep (gosh can one sleep a lot during finals). When I awoke it was
time for Shalosh Seuduas. Should I have washed Neyalias Yadim for
waking, dried my hands and then washed a second time for hamotzie? Is
there a period of time that I should wait between these washings? Or is
there another recipie I do not know of?>>

I don't see a problem here.  The issue discussed in the Mishna Berura is
if you have to wash your hands for Asher Yotzar and also for bread.
Here, there is only one beracha, Al Netilas Yadaim (ANY).  Wash as for
waking, say ANY and eat.  If you are concerned about the 2+2 vs. the
alternating pattern, use a revi'is for each hand.  This will obviate a
second washing for ANY (i.e. once per hand instead of twice) and you can
follow the alternating pattern.

Chaim Shapiro


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:22:31 +0300
Subject: Re: Washing Dishes on Shabbos

> use powdered cleaners such as "Comet"? Can a countertop be "scoured"?

Liquid soaps only, not the powdered nor the solid.  Only the dishes you
will be using on Shabbat--no cooking utensils, since you can't cook on
Shabbat.  Plastic wirey scrubber, no sponge.



From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 18:24:13 -0400
Subject: Washing hands after a nap, immediately before hamotzi

> From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
> I went to an early Mincha this past Shabbas.  Upon coming home I went to
> sleep (gosh can one sleep a lot during finals).  When I awoke it was
> time for Shalosh Seuduas.  Should I have washed Neyalias Yadim for
> waking, dried my hands and then washed a second time for hamotzie?  Is
> there a period of time that I should wait between these washings?  Or is
> there another recipie I do not know of?

Shortest answer:
ask your local Orthodox  Rabbi.

Reasonable answer:
You should wash only once and have in mind that the washing will function
both to remove ruach raah from your sleep and also to purify your hands as
was done by the cohanim in the beis hamikdash.

Long answer:
Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim Chapter 158, the Laws of Washing Hands for a
Meal, paragraph 1:
"When one comes to eat bread for which one recites the MaMotzee blessing, he
should wash his hands even he is unaware that they contain any impurity, and
should say the blessing "al netilas yadayim."

The words "even if he is unaware that that contain any impurity" is the
critical phrase.  The halacha would be different if it stated, "...even if
he is aware that they are not impure."

This halacha is clarified futher, in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim, chapter
164, paragraph 1:
 "A man may wash his hands in the morning and stipulate about them for the
entire day [that this handwashing is intended to remove impurity so they
will remain pure the entire day] ...as long as he does not stop disrupt his
concentration from them [i.e. does not speak about unrelated matters and
continues to remeber that he is keeping his hands away from any sources of
impurity].  If water is nearby [later in the day when he would normally wash
for bread], it is preferable that he wash his hands but should not recite a
bracha [since this handwashing is not required by halkha, strictly

Therefore, in your case, where you are washing your hands after a nap
immediately before eating your afternoon meal on Shabbos, it is certainly
acceptable from a halakhic point of view that you have in mind that this
handwashing will apply for your hamotzi and you do not need to wach twice.
It is important that the washing be done in the manner that we wash in the
morning (i.e. alternating pouring).

If you want to be machmir and satisfy the "preferable" manner of washing,
you run the risk of saying a bracha levatolah on the second washing.  One
possibility is that after you wash the first time, you touch your neck in an
area that is usually covered with your shirt, which is something that will
obligate a netila.  Or you could wash twice but not make a bracha on the
either washing.  I'm sure other members of kahal mail-jewish come up with
creative, additional suggestions.

By the way, i presume that you slept for "60 breaths"  (about 30 minutes) or
more, otherwise you have to obligation to wash after waking up, and the
above questions are irrelevant.



End of Volume 34 Issue 72