Volume 34 Number 74
                 Produced: Fri Jun  8  8:18:25 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Another Correction/Qamats qatan (2)
         [Zev Sero, Ira L. Jacobson]
Birchas Kohanim
         [Boruch Merzel]
Current situation in Israel
         [Netanel Livni]
Halab yisrael
         [Joseph Mosseri]
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
         [Nadine Bonner]
         [Perets Mett]
         [Leona Kroll]
Laws of Kiruv
         [Russell Hendel]
Ps29-11: Pauses in Davening: A simple trick
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Tefilah Correction
         [Stuart Wise]
Torah & Sefer Yehoshua
         [Shalom Carmy]


From: Zev Sero <Zev@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:14:05 -0400 
Subject: Re: Another Correction/Qamats qatan

Meylekh Viswanath <pviswanath@...> wrote:
> weekday kedusha, when a person says uve-divrei kadshekho kosuv
> leemor, instead of uve-divrei kodshekho kosuv leemor. I have not
> been able to confirm this for sure, but it seems to me that this
> changes the meaning from "and it is written in your holy words,"
> to "and in the words of your kadesh (male temple prostitute), it
> is written." 

But the word for `male whore' is `qodeish' (kometz kuf, tzeire
dalet, shin), not `qadeish' (Devorim 23:18).  BTW, the translation
`temple prostitute', while perhaps fashionable, doesn't reflect
with our tradition, which understands it generally as a sexually
promiscuous man (possibly, but not necessarily, homosexual), and
specifically as a man who sleeps with slaves (or, according to
R Yishmoel, as the passive partner in a male-male coupling).

From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 18:54:29 +0300
Subject: Re: Another Correction/Qamats qatan

Meylekh Viswanath <pviswanath@...> wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 34 #67 

>  However, it seems to me that this becomes a bit more problematic in the
>weekday kedusha, when a person says uve-divrei kadshekho kosuv leemor,
>instead of uve-divrei kodshekho kosuv leemor.

         I am puzzled as to why this is problematic only in the
*weekday* qedusha.  It is present on weekdays, sabbath-days, holidays,
atonement days, new-moon days and evey other day that i can think of.

         I would also be disturbed by hearing leemor instead of lemor or
leimor.  That would sound similar to the "Jerusalem" dialect that
pronounces the word for two hundred as though it had four syllables.



From: Boruch Merzel <BoJoM@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:52:45 EDT
Subject: Birchas Kohanim

Thought some of you might find it of interest that in an old Karite
"Siddur" I saw a few years back the prayer is phrased as follows:

"Bar'cheinu vab'racha ham'shuleshes hak'suvah batorah al y'dei Moshe, etc.
"Bless us with the threefold blessing wirtten in the Torah by Moshe, etc."

Who was the first to switch the word "Hak'suvah"?

Boruch Merzel


From: Netanel Livni <n_livni@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:43:30 -0700
Subject: RE: Current situation in Israel

Frank Reiss <freiss47@...> Wrote

In light of the tragedy that is going on in Israel, I have been thinking
of some of the Torah and halachik aspects.

<1. How does a Jewish government deal with a barbaric enemy? Was a
similar situation encountered in the past? I am referring to an enemy
who willingly sacrifices and applauds sending children or others to
their death, the suicide bombers.>

How about the same way that Joshua was instructed to deal with the seven
nations.  This is particularly true in light of the Abarbanel's insight
that the instructions given to Joshua were not specific to the seven
nations but were logical to implement in any similar situation.  If you
start settling on land that another nation sees as their own, you will
inevitably agitate them to the point of violence.  The only solution is
to remove them totally from the land and thus take away their capacity
for violence.

<2. If one is living in an area that has constant terrorism, and ones
life is therefore at risk, is one obligated to leave this area

R Tzvi Yehuda Kook Zt"l points out that the mitzva of yeshuv Eretz
Yisrael is the only mitzva for which you are allowed le'katchila to put
yourself in danger.  We can see this from the fact that throughout all
the generations, gedolim displayed much mesirut nefesh to get to Eretz
Yisrael (eg. Ramban, R Yehuda HaLevi, etc.)

Also, I don't remember the specifics but R. Hertzog Zt"l wrote a tshuva
regarding what is halachicaly considered a sakana.  I believe that the
current situation in Israel does not have that status.

Netanel Livni


From: Joseph Mosseri <JMosseri@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:09:23 -0400
Subject: Halab yisrael

I agree whole heartedly with the anonymous poster who complained about
the quality and freshness of the Halab Yisrael milk as compared with
regular milk.

Regular milk stays fresher longer. The Halab Yisrael milk always spoils
before the date on the package.

Unfortunately it has become harder to find regular milk. We live in a
"religious" neighborhood and all stores including the supermarkets have
begun to cater this Halab Yisrael milk exclusively to cater to the local

Any thoughts????
Any ideas why this is???????


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahem@...>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:48:29 -0400
Subject: RE: Hashgachot

>From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
>There are aspects to the hashgacha issue being discussed that are
>usually not mentioned.  While kashrut organizations don't SAY that food
>without hashgacha is traif, they certainly IMPLY it with their "not
>recommended" comments (which is pejorative; a more neutral designation
>would be "we don't know" or "we can't speak to that product's kashrut
>one way or the other", etc.).

Many kashrus organizations (such as the star-k which I recently called)
do indeed give more "neutral" statements when they apply.  They are also
very careful to speak only about a particular product which is being
asked about and will not speak about some other organization's

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz - <sabbahem@...>


From: Nadine Bonner <nfbonner@...>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:22:38 -0400
Subject: Hashgohas

Barak Greenberg writes
<Most people would become quite interested in the details if they found
out that hechsher companies were adopting chumros that prevent them from
eating various foods. >

Exactly what foods are people deprived of eating? As someone who spends
an inordinate amount of time in the supermarket, I am amazed at the
array of kosher products on the shelves, especially compared to those
available when I was growing up.

I really fail to to see a conspiracy on the part of the various hashgoha
organizations. There are so many of them, anyway, with such different
standards, it shouldn't be hard to find one that meets your level of
kashrut, whatever that may be.

I really don't want to return to the days when you had to trust the list
of ingredients on every item. And yes, a products can "taste like real
butter" and be pareve if the taste is all chemical. Just as the
"Canadian bacon" my husband likes is a 100 percent soy product and
certified by the OK.


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:22:09 +0100
Subject: Kellogg's

>Per the comment about the Kashrus of Kellogg's Rice Krispies.  Kellogg's
>products with a "K" or "KD" are certified as kosher by the Rabbinical
>Council of New England.  Kellogg's has the option to use the Rabbincal
>Council of New England's KVH symbol but have chosen to only put a K on
>their products.

This comment applies to North America only.

In Europe most Kellogg's products are under the Hasgocho the Manchester
Beth Din and are marked with the appropriate symbol. The range includes
includes at least one dairy item, in which the milk used is Cholov

Perets Mett


From: Leona Kroll <leona_kroll@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 23:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Kiruv

The lashon in the Torah is "rebuke, you shall rebuke".  Why the double
language? To teach us that before we rebuke our fellow we must first
rebuke ourselves- we must realize our own imperfections, to the point of
seeing some hint in us of the aveira we see in another, i.e. its good to
invite people for Shabbos,etc., but don't sit there feeling glum and
superior because you "know" what Shabbos is- most of us who are trying
to be shomer Shabbos really don't know the laws as well as we think and
we make mistakes

(this is just one example). 

I read a wonderful article once in the Jewish Observer by a woman who
was talking to a non-observant Jewish co-worker about Yiddishkeit, and
he said something along the lines of "I have a Jewish heart and that's
what matters". The gist of the article was, after she went thru a
typical day in her head and realized how often she didn't daven or do
certain things, she thought to herself, " but I have a Jewish
heart. Isn't that what matters?", and she realized how very similar she
and this "frei" Yid really were.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe asked his chassidim not to use the term 'kiruv' to
describe their work, saying "who are you to say that they are far, and
you are close?"


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 18:03:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Laws of Kiruv

Just two quick thoughts to Rabbi Seinfelds very well written
posting on Kiruv.

FIRST: Rabbi Seinfeld asks "In what category is a person who eats
traifas etc--is he a brother, compatriart, neighbor..."

This is answered explicitly in Rabmam Laws of Murder 13 Last few
laws. Rambam discusses whether we are obligated to help lift up the
overloaded donkey of a Jew who sins. Rambam, besides citing the Biblical
verse (already cited by Rabbi Seinfeld) requiring such assistance,
clearly explains the reason: "As long as this person belongs to Gods
community (ie has not actively separated) and believes in the
fundamental doctrines we are obligated to help them..."

There are many ways of interpreting this Rambam...I would simply say
that unless a person actively advocates separation from the Jewish
community and/or disbelief in God he/she falls into the above category.

It is interesting in Passing that I first brought this Rambam up several
years ago regarding a dying cancer patient who started driving to shule
on shabbat because she was too weak to walk. the community ostracized
her and I, based on Rambam 13, suggested that they treat her
compassionately since her feelings are not inferiro inferior to the
feelings of a donkey of a sinning Jew.

SECOND: Regarding Kiruv tactics: I have recently conducted an exhaustive
analysis of the so called 4 sons: Following Rabbi Soloveitchick who
(=dosent_care_to_ask) I suggest using the following Biblically suggested
approaches * emphasize personal vs a communal approach * use many
symbols * treat the person with kindness

These ideas all emanate from the Biblical text (e.g. throughout the
APATHETIC SON chapter only the singular is used while by the other sons
the plural is also used (when your sonS ask).

Those who want to may see a summary at

You can also look at http://www.RashiYomi.Com/ at the series
pa-1.htm thru pa-11.htm.

I agree with Rabbi Seinfeld that this is an important topic and I hope
we see a discussion for several dozen issues

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.Com/


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:15:06 +0300
Subject: Re: Ps29-11: Pauses in Davening: A simple trick

Russell Hendel <rhendel@...> wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 34 #67:

>My favorite davening example is Ps29:11 which SHOULD be translated:
>God: He will give strength to his nation:
>God: He will bless his nation with peace
>(The point is that translating "God will bless...." is incorrect)

         Russel has made an interesting but difficult point.  I presume
that the colon does not represent the speaker and his monolog, as plays
are written.  If I am correct, then, in English we seem to have a poorly
constructed sentence with two subjects.

         And I find it difficult to understand how Russel differentiates
between the meanings of "G-d will . . . " and "G-d: He will . . ."  In a
grammar class, WADR, I suspect that the teacher would correct the former
to make it into the latter.

         Or am I missing something?


From: Stuart Wise <swise@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:28:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Tefilah Correction

Similarly, I hear too often people who daven for the amud in the
repetition of the Shemoneh Esrai say "go-al Yisroel" (as it appear right
before Shemoneh Esrai, instead of "go-ail Yisroel" -- Hashem is STILL
the redeemer, and grammatically "go-al" the verb would be wrong


From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:20:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Torah & Sefer Yehoshua

> to support one view or another.  If you approach data already knowing
> what the answer is, there is no need to examine the data.  And it is not
> the Torah's view of anything that is challenged by archeological
> findings -- it is more the description of the conquest as presented in
> Joshua.

1. I trust that the last sentence is not a reiteration of the position
that used to be professed at JTS and elsewhere that one is only required
to accept the Humash (or at least pretend to) but not Neviim.

2. Even if one wishes to adopt this odd theology, the description of Am
Yisrael in Humash, poised to enter Eretz Yisrael en masse, contains most
of the controversial ingredients that bother archaeologists. So throwing
Sefer Yehoshua to the wolves of skepticism doesn't save the Humash from
the same fate.


End of Volume 34 Issue 74