Volume 34 Number 81
                 Produced: Tue Jun 19  6:54:17 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Our Missing Sons
         [Leona Kroll]
Repeating Words
         [Baruch J. Schwartz]
Repetition of words during prayer
         [Andrew Klafter]
Repetition of Words in Prayer
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Transliteratoin of Halab Yisrael, Clarification and Apology
         [Andrew Klafter]
Tunes for "Baruch shenatan" and "Hodo al eretz"
         [Mike Gerver]


From: Leona Kroll <leona_kroll@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:09:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Our Missing Sons

As reported in the Jerusalem Post, families of the kidnapped and missing
Israeli soldiers in Lebanon are trying to get one million people around
the world to sign an Internet petition to help free their sons.  They
are quite far from their objective of 1 million (currently only about
350,000 have registered).

The petition can be found at:

Zachary BAumel, Tzvi Feldman, and Yehuda Katz were kidnapped 19 years
ago. By all rights, they should be now going to their own children's
graduations, dreaming of making weddings for them, etc. If G-d Willing
they are still alive- how much life we have allowed to be stolen from
them! Will we allow the same to happen to the other MIAs? It is long
past time that we bring them home.


From: Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:51:08 +0200
Subject: Repeating Words

Yisrael Medad asks if "any source delineates between repetition of words
of the Amidah and everything else?"

Please consult Ishei Yisrael by Avraham Yeshaya Pfoifer, Jerusalem 5758
(which is, to my mind, the most thorough and user-friendly book on
hilchot tefillah ever to appear), Chapter 14 paragraph 13 (p. 125). The
author rules against the repetition of words in the tefillah (i.e. the
amida) and kedusha, noting specifically the repetitions of phrases in
hallel as fixed by the Sages as the only exceptions. Note 35 refers to
the responsa of Maharam Shick 1:31 and other sources--but also mentions
the Arukh HaShulhan 338:8 who defended the practice of repeating.

Note 36, refers, among other sources, to Igrot Moshe OH 2:22 for some
details. According to the citation there from a book entitled Ve-alehu lo
Yibbol, Rabbi S. Z. Auerbach is said to have ruled that the repeating of
words by the shat"z in a brachah is considered a hefsek and amen should
not be said.

However, the author takes pains to mention (citing Orah Neeman 53:22)
that the shat"z must in no circumstances change the traditional melody of
the prayers, reminding us of the story of the Maharil who attributed
the untimely death of his daughter one year to the fact that at the
beginning of that year he had made the mistake of changing the
traditional melody of one of the selichot.

On the basis of all of this and common sense, in the shul of which I have
the honor to serve as gabbai (The Central Synagogue of Rimon in Efrat)
the practice is more or less not to allow the repetition of words in the
brachot of Shema, in the Amida and kedushah, and of course not in the
recitation of biblical verses (pesukei dezimra, kabbalat shabbat or
hallel--except where the halachah requires). However, we allow the
repetition of words in selichot, piyyutim and other non-statutory and
non-biblical parts of the service. But, when there is a conflict between
the avoidance of repetition and the traditional melodies (but not new
melodies!), and this cannot be easily solved by minor adjustment, the
repetition is allowed to stand.


From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:23:55 -0400
Subject: Repetition of words during prayer

> From: Haim Snyder <Haim.Snyder@...>
> It is my personal feeling that there are enough tunes which are known to
> the communities and/or which are pleasing to the ear which do not call
> for repetition so that any hazan who feels he MUST repeat words is
> showing his musical ignorance or laziness.

I am not impressed with this argument.  If a shul has used a melody for
many years, and Rabbanim have been present during the melodies, or have
even sung the melodies when they lead the prayer services, it is not out
of ignorance or laziness that someone would use the same melody for
tefillot that inspired them as they grew up in a frum community.  With
statments like this, you betray enormous contempt for large segments of
Adath Yeshurun.

> From: Sid Gordon <sid.gordon@...>
> A little reality check here.  How many of the readers of this list, when
> they see the chazan wrapped in his talit standing in front of the open
> aron kodesh, soon to be holding the Sefer Torah close to his heart and
> intoning Shema Yisrael, declaring the Oneness of G-d, and they hear him
> say "Baye, baye ana rachetz" suspect that he is secretly a Zoroastrian,
> praying to a dual-deity?  As the chevre say, give me a break.
> I'm not suggesting there's no validity to the view which opposes
> repetition.  But I expect a little respect for the traditions
> of those who see it as enhancing, in some cases, the beauty of the
> tefila.

    YES! YES! YES!
    Sid, you are exactly correct.  This is the problem with Haim's posting
above, and (I'm sad to admit) a major problem with many of my
right-of-center Orthodox brethren.  I wish more people could be proud of
their own minhagim or chumras, and not need to denigrate others.
    And let's not get confused: we are not talking here about the areas of
halakha where there may be legitimate criticism about certain circles being
too lax (hair-covering, modest drest, etc.).  We are talking about melodies
which have been used in proper Orthodox minyanim for generations, which
Rabbis, teachers, Dayanim, and fathers singing as shlichei tzibur or as part
of the Kahal.  Yiyashar Kochecha.


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:49:46 +0300
Subject: Re: Repetition of Words in Prayer

Gilad J. Gevaryahu wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 34 #76 Digest:

>1. In the Torah reading of Rosh Hodesh, one pasuk is read twice. (A must.)

Of course.  This is a well-established custom, and distorts nothing
whatsoever.  Just the opposite of the "Modim, Modim" or Shema` Shema`"

>2. On Simchat Torah, the parashah is read repeatedly until every one got
>an aliyah. (A custom in most synagogues I am familiar with)

The same comment as for 1.

>3. In Megilat Esther there are several words which are read twice, with
>a sight different pronunciation (I don't know if the repetition of words
>in Esther is universal).

This is done for making sure that the correct meaning is conveyed, out
of doubt for which is the correct one.  This is totally at variance with
stating "Barukh shenatan Tora Tora, Barukh shenatan Tora Tora," which
can clearly be understood in a way that distorts the basis of the Jewish
religion, that there is one G-d.

>4."Lezecher" "lezeicher" in parashat Zachor is repeated by some (Some
>rabbanim prohibit this repetition).

(Actually, the lamed is not pronounced in either case <g>.)  Some
rabbanim repeat the entire pasuq.  And then they repeat the entire
reading in accordance with the various traditions of all present, since
this reading is regarded as a Tora-mandated reading.  The way it is done
(and the way I myself do it), by repeating the entire pasuq, is that if
zeikher is correct, then the first time the pasuq is read fulfils the
obligation.  And if zekher is correct, then the second reading of the
pasuq replaces the first, just as when the ba`al qeriya makes an error
and has to repeat the pasuq.

>5. We all say "Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh" three times as it comes directly
>from a pasuk (Isa. 6:3). Would you agree that saying it more times in
>this context would not add heresy, since if the first three refer to
>three rashuyot (which it does not), then adding another "kadosh" or two
>would not add any more rashuyot.

Certainly not.  Reading a pasuq precisely the way it is written could
not possibly be heresy.  The Tarqum explains the meaning, and we recite
it in Uva Lezion daily.  And BTW, we say Qadosh, qadosh qadosh three
times on weekdays (shaharit, qedusha desidra and minha) four times on
rosh hodesh, shabbat, yomtov and hol hamo`ed (shaharit, musaf, qedusha
desidra and minha), and even more on Yom Qippur.

BTW, have you ever heard people sing "Shomer, shomer, shomer Yisra'el"?  I 
think it presents a similar problem to Modim Modim.

                 IRA L. JACOBSON


From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:31:34 -0400
Subject: Transliteratoin of Halab Yisrael, Clarification and Apology

In a previous post about spoilage of Chalav Yisrael milk, v34n78 I wrote:

> >  Ok, first of all, if you are machmir to drink milk which
> >  has been supervised directly by Jews and are not relying on the
> >  FDA hashgacha, it is socially incongruent for you to write Halab Yisrael.
> >  You will fit in much better if you write Cholov Yisroel.  (Yisroyel is
> >  also acceptable).

This was intended as a JOKE.  Evidently, it was not a good joke, as I
have received several emails from people who are offended as they
believe that I am mocking Sephardic pronunciation, implying that
ashkenazi jews are more religious, or belittling those who rely on the
opinion of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Z"L, that one may rely on the FDA's
supervision for milk and dairy products in the USA.

Here is one characteristic quote from a private email:

>At some point, you
>Ashkenazim have got to come to the realization--as painful as it may
>be--that your pronunciation of "Lashon Hakodesh" is corrupt and
>simply wrong! Such chutzpah is shameful from a person who considers
>himself religious. What gives you the idea that you have any right to
>correct someone who is more correct than you could ever be. This
>chauvinistic, biased and prejudiced attitude is what causes pirud in
>Am Yisrael!

Let me clarify what I wrote and apologize for offending people.

1. I have been, for some time now, poking fun at people who employ the
academic convention for Hebrew transliteration because
    a) These translations are not helpful; it's often impossible to figure
out what Hebrew is being depicted
    b) Judaic studies academics often make pretentious and unimpressive
"corrections" of Orthodox laity and rabbis.
    c) I have a deep psychological aversion to pretentiousness--(my
psychological issues are more suitably a topic for my own psychoanalysis and
not for mail jewish, but this is probably related to why I am spending some
of my mailjewish time trying to refute the authors who complain about
"errors" in popular synagogue melodies, or "problematic repetitions" of bay
ana rachitz, etc.)

2. I did not mean to offend anyone--not even academics.  The emails I have
gotten have interpreted my bad joke as a serious statement which betrays,
self-righteousness, arrogance, and intolerance.  Let me say more
specifically the following:
    a) My piece had nothing to do with Sephardim.  I did not even consider
that "Halab Yisrael" might equate with "Sephardic pronunciation." (And, in
fact, I still contend that it does not.)  I simply find it odd and funny
that it is considered more precise in some circles to write "HaLaB", or
"HLB" than to write "Cholov" or "Chalav" or the like?  Shouldn't one of the
goals of transliteration also be to sound like the word you are depicting?
The following posting in mailjewish v34n65 by Mike Gerver reflects my
sentiments well enough:

 > Subject: Transliterating Hebrew
 > From: Mike Gerver <Mike.Gerver@...>
 > Saul Davis, in v34n42, mentions that the Mehoqeqey Yehuda was written
 > by "Yehuda Liv Qarinsqy."  While I admire Saul's dedication to
 > following a consistent system for transliterating Hebrew, wouldn't it
 > be less confusing (especially since his middle and last name are not
 > Hebrew) to refer to him as "Yehuda Leib Karinsky?"

    b) I do not believe that Ashkenazi Jews are more pious than Sephardic
    c) I do not contend that Ashkenazi pronunciation is more precise or
appropriate than Sephardic or Modern Hebrew.
    d) I consider Chalav Yisrael a legitimate disagreement among halakhic
authorities, and I do not believe that either view is corelated with
superior knowledge of halakha or a higher level of piety.
    e) I do not consider myself more pious or knowledgable than the average
reader/contributor to mailjewish.
    f) I don't mean to offend those who take the transliteration covention
seriously--I just want to have a spirited disagreement with some humor.
(Actually I haven't heard from anyone on the transliteration issue--so
perhaps that aspect has not been considered personally offensive.)
    g) I assume the moderator did not think I was insulting anyone, or else
he wouldn't have allowed it to be posted.
    h) I am sorry both about making a bad joke, and, more importantly, to
have offended people.  Please accept this sincere apology.



From: Mike Gerver <Mike.Gerver@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:00:29 +0200
Subject: Tunes for "Baruch shenatan" and "Hodo al eretz"

Deborah Wenger, in v34n71, writes

> I've noticed that in my shul, although many (if not most) repeat the
> lines "Ki mitzion teitzei Torah" and "Baruch shenatan Torah," there are

I've noticed that Israeli shuls all seem to use a different tune for
"Baruch shenatan Torah" than American shuls, and the Israeli tune does
not repeat the whole phrase, nor does it repeat the word "torah" within
the phrase.  This does not mean that Israeli shuls never repeat words,
though.  There is a similar dichotomy between Israeli and American shuls
in the tune they use for "Hodo al eretz veshamayim" when returning the
Torah, but both of them repeat "halleluyah" at the end.  There is also a
difference in Israeli and American tunes for Psalm 29 while returning
the Torah.  And there is a characteristic Israeli tune for the beginning
of "Mizmor shir le-yom ha-shabbat" on Friday night, though that tune is
occasionally used in the United States.

I'm curious about the fact that, in my experience, the standard American
tunes are not used in any Israeli shul, and the standard Israeli tunes
are not used in any American shul.  You would think that, once in a
while, a congregation in one country would decide to use the tune from
the other country, but that never seems to happen.  Does anyone know the
origin of these different tunes?  Can anyone explain why there is so
little cross-cultural diffusion for these particular tunes?  There is
plenty of diffusion of other tunes used in shul, for example in the
kedusha of musaf on Shabbat, in Hallel, etc.

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


End of Volume 34 Issue 81