Volume 34 Number 84
                 Produced: Wed Jun 20  7:10:36 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Cholov Yisroel Milk
         [Zev Sero]
Chumros /Hechsherim
         [Y. Askotzky]
Custom of Standing for Recitation of Psalm 29 Mizmor LeDavid
         [Mark Kligman]
Ein Navi Be'iro
         [Ari Kahn]
External Ice Dispenser on Shabbos
         [Andrew Klafter]
Harachaman-im of bentching
         [Joshua Adam Meisner]
Hebrish dikduk
         [Art Werschulz]
         [Deborah Wenger]
Kabbalah as a source of Halachah
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
A Little Lesson in North American History
         [Jeanette Friedman]
Oyev / Ohev
         [Mark Steiner]


From: Zev Sero <Zev@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:04:18 -0400
Subject: RE: Cholov Yisroel Milk

Rabbi Yisroel Finman <NISHMAT@...>

> All milk sold commercially in the United States is subjected to
> rigorous USDA inspections.

According to the USDA web site http://www.usda.gov, it is only
responsible for the safety of meat, poultry, and egg products.  The
mission statement of the Food Safety and Inspection Service
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/oa/background/fsisgeneral.htm goes into much
detail about meat, poultry and eggs, and does not so much as mention
`milk' or `dairy'.  I think I'm pretty safe in concluding that the USDA
plays no role in the regulation of milk.


From: Y. Askotzky <sofer@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:15:24 +0200
Subject: Chumros /Hechsherim

Are you certain that bitul b'shishim is a chumra? As far as I am aware
one may not lechatchila use bitul bshishim but rather if something
becomes bitul b'shishim (in many cases) he may then eat it.

Are we able to read ingredients to know what is dairy and if so, if that
particular dairy product is less than shishim and if so if the heter of
bitul b'shishim applies?

We can easily contact a kashrus expert today or call the company
providing the hechser to find out if it a DE or dairy product.

Do all major hechsherim not rely on the smaller ones? The fact is many
rely on each other, both large and small. The issue is not one of size
but if one hechser meets the standards of the other. Perhaps the issue
is the other way around? Maybe most hechsherim are mainstream in their
halachic opinions while others follow minority opinions to be lenient?
As far as I'm aware this is the case and in fact a handful of small
hechsherim are the one's known to be strict as they serve the
"yeshivish/chassidic" community.

kol tuv,

Rabbi Yerachmiel Askotzky, certified sofer and examiner
<sofer@...>   www.stam.net   1-888-404-STAM(7826)


From: Mark Kligman <m_kligman@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:47:42 -0400
Subject: Custom of Standing for Recitation of Psalm 29 Mizmor LeDavid

Where does the custom of standing to recite Mizmor LeDavid (Psalm 29)
during Kabbalat come from?  The artscroll siddur stages that
commentators discuss reciting this psalm with intensity.

Please reply to Mark Kligman <mkligman@...>


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:50:02 +0200
Subject: Ein Navi Be'iro

I noticed that Rick Turkel used as a signature on his email "ein navi be
iro" I have heard people use this phrase - if one would search the Bar
Ilan responsa disc no results would be forthcoming. "Ein Navi liro"
would produce 2 references in the chatam sofer. other bibliographic
searches (computerized and other) would produce less than a handful of
late authorities who cite "Chazal" as the source. As far as I know the
only source for this teaching is The Koran referring to Mohammad - does
anyone out there know something I don't - is there a Jewish source for
this saying?

Ari Kahn


From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:31:00 -0400
Subject: External Ice Dispenser on Shabbos

> From: Sherman Marcus <shermanm@...>
>     What are the halachic implications of using an ice maker on shabbat?
> Many side-by-side refrigerators have a section on the outside of the
> freezer door that can provide cold water and/or ice.  Are there models
> that operate mechanically which might facilitate their use on shabbat?
> If there IS a problem, or if the operation is electronic, is it
> possible/permissible to retrieve the ice manually from inside the
> freezer?

The potential Halakhic problems include the following. I am not
adjudicating the halakha, and some of the issues below are approached
differently among halakhic authorities.  We looked into buying a new
refrigerator recently, so some of this is fresh in my mind.

1. All of the external ice dispensers that I've seen involved electric
power when you push the lever.  It seems that all halkhic authorities
would prohibit this.

2. Many of the ice dispensers also involve a light which goes on which
cannot be placed in a permanently on/off mode the way our ovens can.
Nor did the light bulbs seem accessible to unscrew.

3. It should be permissible to retrieve the ice manually from inside the
freezer, except... (see 4 and 5 below).

4. All refrigerators with external ice dispensers have an automatic ice
maker which is also electrically powered inside the freezer.  If you are
removing ice manually from the ice bucket, it is important to no how the
ice maker mechanism works so you will not be activating it psik raisha.

5. Many authorities consider ice which was frozen from water during
Shabbos or Yom Tov to be NOLAD, which is muktza and is not supposed to
be used on Shabbas.  (The prototypical case of "Nolad" in the Talmud is
an egg which was laid on Shabbos.  The Sages consider this samuch
l'malacha ("almost biblically prohibited") and enacted a gezera
designating it as muktza and prohibiting its usage.  Other authorities
do not consider ice formed on Shabbos to be nolad, but rather only
consider water formed from ice to be nolad.  Therefore, I can imagine a
halakhic ruling that it is necessary to avoid ice which was made on

Have a Good Shabbos.


From: Joshua Adam Meisner <jam390@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:52:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Harachaman-im of bentching

What is the origin (and time period) of the widespread custom to add
after the 4th bracha of bentching the list of harachaman-im (as well as
BaMarom, Magdil, and the p'sukim of Y'ru)?  A number of sources that I
looked at mentioned a connection to having a guest say a bracha for his
host after the meal, but this only deals with one of the harachaman-im.

- Josh


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:38:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hebrish dikduk


There's been a lot of recent discussion of dikduk recently, including
spellings and pronunciations.

Allow me to add my own inconsequential pet peeve, the resolution of
which is not likely to be of any great importance.

Everybody seems to agree that
  the adjectival form of "rabbi" is "rabbinic", not "rabbinik",
  the adjectival form of "talmud" is "talmudic", not "talmudik".
So why do so many people write "halachik" rather than "halachic" as
the adjectival form of "halacha"?


Art Werschulz (8-{)}   "Metaphors be with you."  -- bumper sticker
Internet: <agw@...><a href="http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~agw/">WWW</a>
ATTnet:   Columbia U. (212) 939-7061, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325


From: Deborah Wenger <dwenger@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:37:52 -0400
Subject: Hechsherim

I want to make an addition to the current discussion on hechsherim,
kashrut-supervising organizations, etc.

I have noticed in the past year or two that a number of products (and
several kosher restaurants in NY) now bear two or more hechsherim -
generally, one from a major organization such as the OU, and another
from an individual mashgiach, such as "this establishment is under the
supervision of Rav Ploni from Kehillat So-and-so." (Taken to an extreme,
I purchased one product for Pesach that had FOUR different hechsher
symbols on it!)

What this is saying to me is that "for those of you who don't trust OU
supervision, we also have an individual hashgacha - and for those of you
who have never heard of Rav Ploni, we're also supervised by the OU." The
message I'm getting - and I don't know if anyone else feels this way too
- is that there seems to be an increasing distrust among the various
supervising organizations. If this is the case, how are we "mere
mortals" supposed to choose?

Kol tuv,


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:28:58 +0200
Subject: Kabbalah as a source of Halachah

More and more, I see people wearing what is asserted to be Techelet in
their Tzitzit, and of course I cannot judge whether this claim is a
valid one.

What I find disconcerting, though, is that many of those who wear the
Techelet Tzitzit do not follow the prescriptions of Shulchan Aruch
(whereby each Tzitzit corner has five sets of knots, interspersed by -
accoring to many opinions - 7, 8, 11 and 13 windings of the Shamash
thread), but instead have Tzitzit which seem to have something like 11
sets of double knots interspersed by 10 sets of windings (I may be wrong
about the exact numbers). I've asked what the source for this diversion
from Halachah Pesukah is, and was told it's kabbalistic in nature.

As I have always understood it, normative Judaism follows Shulchan
Aruch, and certainly not kabbalah when it differs from Shulchan Aruch.

Can any enlighten me as to what gives with this change in Tzitzit knot

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Jeanette Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:01:42 EDT
Subject: A Little Lesson in North American History

I am just guessing about this, but if you count Curacao and the
Caribbean Islands as part of North America, i would start looking
between 1500-1564 in Holland, the Islands, Recife, Brazil, and perhaps
Hispaniola, as well as in Sephardic communities in Palestine and North
Africa--any place but Europe--for correspondance and authors of
rabbinical tracts and sermons in those days.

The Jews in North America followed the laws of kashrut and Shabbat,
brought in schita, (the second Jew in New Amsterdam, Asser Levy, was a
shoichet) and there were ties with rabbanim from Palestine well before
the Revolutionary War.  The oldest extant house built by a Jew in North
America (1713 as a trading post with whtever remained of the native
Americans and the new farmers) is the Gomez Mill House (forermly known
as the Gomes the Jew House on Jews' Creek), which was built by the
Parnas of the first kehilla in NYC, Shearith Israel--which is still in
existence in Manhattan. The house is 5 miles north of the Beacon Bridge
on Route 9W in Marlboro, NY, one town up from Newburgh. There were also
kehillot in the Islands and in St.  Augustine, FL.  There were also Jews
in what was to become Montreal and in orther parts of Canada..

During the Revolution, which was financed in part via arrangements made
by any number of Jews with ties to the Dutch West India Company and
other sources--and not just by Hayim Solomon (who died a pauper after he
was stiffed by the founding fathers, primarily James
Madison)--Charleston, SC and Philadelphia, PA became the largest Jewish
communities in North America.  There were Jews scattered throughout the
colonies, in all trades, and through the history of the US, from its
birth until today, they died in every single war America ever fought,
even on both sides of the Civil War, in numbers far beyond their
proportion in the general population.

Through all those years, they maintained religious ties with their roots
in Europe and other places, importing shoichtim, mohalim, chazanim,
poskim, moralists, etc., who, though Orthodox in the most frum sense of
the word, were invited to lecture to Christians in Protestant churches
around America.  The Jews here were granted total and complete civil
rights and equality, including the right to vote and run for office
(except for all women of course), for the first time in world history,
by George Washington, the first president of the United States of

Sorry for the history lesson, but I just thought everyone should know
that the first Jew landed in Hispaniola (now Cuba) with Columbus, and
remained there.  We got here before the Mayflower did.  :-)

Jeanette Friedman


From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:43:31 +0300
Subject: Re: Oyev / Ohev

>     Having "accused" the chassidim of dropping the mappiq he, I'd like to
> exonerate them from the blasphemy of calling the Almighty a Jew-hater ("oyev
> `amo yirooayl", Heaven forfend).  Here are some relevant points:

1.  The poskim do make a point that special efforts have to be made in
prayer, not merely in Torah reading, to avoid blasphemy, even the
appearance of blasphemy.  This rule even overrides the rules of grammar.

2.  As I pointed out in a previous posting, Yiddish speakers have a dual
pronunciation of Hebrew words; one for Hebrew words "merged" into
Yiddish sentences; another for Hebrew words which are part of Hebrew
sentences (i.e.  davening or layning).  This has been documented by the
Yiddishists like Uriel Weinreich and Mordkhe Shekhter.

3.  While it may well be true that the Hebrew expression for a "lover of
Israel" is pronounced "oyev yisroel" in many dialects of Yiddish (the
opposite of course is "sonei yisroel"), this is not true in my
experience, in shul.  In fact,

4.  Many (if not all) chassidishe shlichei tzibbur make a special effort
to say "Oyhayv amoy yisrooayl"; this is my own experience.  In fact they
emphasize the he (whoops, hay), if only to avoid the blasphemy which
Litvaks accuse them of (jocosely I hope).

Mark Steiner


End of Volume 34 Issue 84