Volume 34 Number 88
                 Produced: Fri Jun 22  5:46:33 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chas VeChalila
         [Netanel Livni]
Cholov Yisroel Milk (4)
         [Michael and Abby Pitkowsky, Idelle Rudman, Rachel Smith, Aaron
Ein Navi Be'iro (4)
         [Chaim Wasserman, Gilad J. Gevaryahu, Joshua Hoffman, Gordon
Ein navi b'iro and othe quotes from the New Testament
         [Paul Shaviv]
Hebrew Haskamot to English Language Books
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Looking for Book by Y.Bar-Lev on Kabbala
         [Andrew Klafter]
Style vs Meaning
         [Russell Hendel]
Succah on Shmini Azeret
         [Yossie Abramson]
V'yoel Moshe
         [Hershy Stauber]


From: Netanel Livni <n_livni@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:21:30 -0700
Subject: Chas VeChalila

I was wondering what the phrase "Chas VeChalila" Actually means.  I know
we use it as a form of "G-d forbid" or "Perish the thought."  But what
do the word Chas and Chalila actually mean?  When is the earliest
mention that we have of the phrase?

Netanel Livni


From: Michael and Abby Pitkowsky <pitab@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:57:01 +0200
Subject: Cholov Yisroel Milk

I don't know how strict the supervision is but according to the US
government milk comes from a cow.  Regarding food labeling the following
is the legal definition.

"Milk is the lacteal secretion, practically free from colostrum,
obtained by the complete milking of one or more healthy cows."


From: Idelle Rudman <rudmani@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:55:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Cholov Yisroel Milk

I contacted the new York State Agriculture Dept, and was told that no
major dairy in NYS uses rBST in their milk.  The companies bottling
cholov Yisrael get their milk from these large producers.  I was told
that the problem of sour milk can come only with poor refrigeration, and
handling.  We find no problem with cholov stam.

Idelle Rudman, MLS, MA, Librarian		    tel: 212-213-2230 x119 
Touro College, Women's Division                     fax: 212-689-3515
Graduate School of Jewish Studies	            <rudmani@...>
160 Lexington Avenue, New York, NY  10016

From: Rachel Smith <rachelms@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 06:54:16 -0700
Subject: RE: Cholov Yisroel Milk

Zev Sero <Zev@...> wrote on Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:04:18 -0400
>Subject: RE: Cholov Yisroel Milk
>According to the USDA web site http://www.usda.gov, it is only
>responsible for the safety of meat, poultry, and egg products. 

This is because dairy inspection is a state responsibility, e.g. see


From: Aaron Lerner <Aaron.Lerner@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:11:21 -0400
Subject: RE: Cholov Yisroel Milk

The U.S. Government agency responsible for milk quality/safety
regulation is the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).  USDA does have
some responsibility over certain dairy operations, but these inspections
are limited to items such as cheese and butter, rather than fluid milk
as the end-product.  The following is from

Under the Public Health Service Act, the Food and Drug Administration
(FDA) and the States administer the Interstate Milk Shippers Program, a
voluntary Federal/State program established to ensure the safety and
wholesomeness of fresh milk in the United States.

Aaron Lerner <Aaron.Lerner@...>
Silver Spring, MD


From: Chaim Wasserman <Chaimwass@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:04:38 EDT
Subject: Ein Navi Be'iro

Ari Kahn's inquiry concerning the origins of (or earliest source for)
"Ein Navi Be'iro" can, I believe, best be addressed by referring to Rav
Aharon Hyman's Otzar Divrei Chachamim u'Pitgameihem (Dvir, Tel
Aviv). See page 49 where he writes "Matthew 13:58).

Chaim Wasserman

From: Gilad J. Gevaryahu <Gevaryahu@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:36:53 EDT
Subject: Ein Navi Be'iro

Ari Kahn (MJ v34n84) asks for the source for the expression "Ein Navi

According to _Hamilon Hechadash_ of Avraham Even Shoshan the earliest
Jewish source is in the book Zevach Pesach of Abarbanel 54:2; Davidson
489, and in the Evangilaion (NT) of Mat. 13:57.

According to _Michlol Ha'mamarim Veha'pitgamim_, Mosad Harav Kook,
Jerusalem, 1961, Vol. I, p. 116 the source for this pitgam is: Midrash
Shemuel on Avot 3:15; and in the book _Ahavat Olam_ to Mahara"sh Algazi
p. 25.

That this issue of the "relationship between the prophet and his city"
is an old Jewish issue, one can find a related saying: "kol navi she'lo
nitparesh shem iro - Yerushalmi hu" [=Any prophet that the city of his
nativity wasn't disclosed -- he was a Jerusalemite]. I am cognizant of
the possible contradiction as this saying might refer to Isaiah, and he
most likely was a Jerusalemite and prophesied there.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu

From: Joshua Hoffman <JoshHoff@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:35:48 EDT
Subject: Re: Ein Navi Be'iro

Ein navi be-iro comes from the New Testament- "A prophet is not wothout
honor save in his own country." It is cited by the Abarbanel somewhere,
possibly on Yirmiyahu. I know this because when I was in yeshiva in
Israel a friend saw it quoted in Peanuts, and he wondered where the
pasuk is. So he looked it up in a concordance and found that the
Abarbanel quoted it from the New Testament.( For the record, Charlie
Brown- or possibly Linus in reference to Charlie Brwon- said it when he
became popular in summer camp because of the brown bag on his head,
whereas at home no one paid attention to him).

From: Gordon Papert <gorab1@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:58:26 -0000
Subject: Ein Navi Be'iro

To my surprise I discovered that the Even Shoshan Hebrew Dictionary states
that this is a popular saying mentioned in a homiletical book called Ahavat
Olam (1642, Constantinople by Rabbi Solomon ben Avraham Algazi ) and that
this saying is itself based on a passage in the "New Testament--Mathew

Gordon Papert


From: Paul Shaviv <pshaviv@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:47:34 -0400
Subject: Ein navi b'iro and othe quotes from the New Testament

Many years ago I read an article by Rav Gershon Kitzis of Jerusalem (a
senior editor of the Hebrew Steinsaltz Talmud, and an extraordinary
teacher) tracing the origin of this saying, and showing how it 'jumped'
into Rabbinic literature in the early Middle Ages. Unfortunately, I
can't remember where the article was published, but it may have been in
the OU periodical issued out of Jerusalem occasionally (does it still
exist?). No doubt some lurker on the list will supply the info. Rabbi
Kitzis confirmed that the phrase has no origin in Jewish sources,
although frequently quoted as a 'Midrash ' or a 'Chazal", including,
famously, the Hatam Sofer.  The origin seems to be ..  Matthew 13:57 "A
prophet is not without honour, save in his own country and in his own
house". The Hebrew is pithier!

That raises the other well-kmown saying of Matthew, which I have
personally heard quoted in the name of R' Yisrael Salanter, the Chofetz
Hayyim etc . In Matthew 15:11, as an anti-halachic polemic, he says:
"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which
cometh out of the mouth defileth a man."

Any other examples????

Paul Shaviv
Headmaster, CHAT - Community Hebrew Academy of Toronto
200, Wilmington Avenue, Toronto, ON M3H 5J8, Canada
Tel: +416-636-5984 x 225 /  Fax: +416-636-7717


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahem@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:11:17 -0400
Subject: RE: Hebrew Haskamot to English Language Books

>From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>

>I have noticed a curious practice: English language books on Judaism,
>which are often translations of Hebrew texts for people who cannot read
>Hebrew, are increasingly accompanied by Haskamot (approbations).  Often,
>the Haskamot are not translated.  What's more, the haskamot don't convey
>any haskama (endorsement).  Nevertheless, they are printed at the
>beginning of the book in Hebrew, and the unsuspecting buyer may well
>believe that the book has true endorsements by noted spiritual leaders.

My rabbi (Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz of Baltimore) once quoted a "haskama"
that he had seen given by Rabbi Mordechai Kaminetzsky (this is from
memory so I could have gotten the name confused) when an organization
was trying to get a haskama from the Baltimore Vaad harabonim.  The
organization was involved in counseling people with "homosexual
tendencies" and it was in the following vein.

There is a problem in society that must be addressed and we all know
that.  This organization works hard at what they do.

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz - <sabbahem@...>


From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:28:57 -0400
Subject: Looking for Book by Y.Bar-Lev on Kabbala

Is anyone willing to sell me a copy of YEDID NEFESH: INTRODUCTION TO
KABBALA by Rabbi/Professor Yerachmiel Bar-Lev?  I am interested in
acquiring both the Hebrew and English versions.

Andrew B. Klafter, MD
Department of Psychiatry-University of Cincinnati
Medical Arts Building 8500, M.L. 665L
222 Piedmont Ave. Cincinnati OH  45219
(513)475-8710    FAX(513)475-8023


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:11:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Style vs Meaning

Ira Jacobson in v34n74 comments on my observations on Ps29-11
which, following the cantillations, I translated as
>God: He will give strength to his nation;
>God: He will bless his nation with peace
>(The point is that translating "God will bless...." is incorrect)

Ira makes 2 comments which I will now answer(My thanks to
Nachum Klafter in mjv34n77 who answers one of the items)
First Ira states

< Russel has made an interesting but difficult point.  I presume
that the colon does not represent the speaker and his monolog, as plays
are written.  If I am correct, then, in English we seem to have a poorly
constructed sentence with two subjects. >

No. THere is one subject with however two predicates. The point
of the sentence is that it is GOD who will BOTH give STRENGTH
as well as PEACE to his nation.

Next Ira states

< And I find it difficult to understand how Russel differentiates
between the meanings of "G-d will . . . " and "G-d: He will . . ."  In a
grammar class, WADR, I suspect that the teacher would correct the former
to make it into the latter. Or am I missing something? >

Yes--you are missing something (Usually taught in advanced English
courses on style).  The difference between < God will give Peace to us >
and < God: He will give Peace to us > is not in MEANING but rather
in EMPHASIS. The EMPHASIS of the sentence < God will give Peace to
us > is that we will eventually have Peace. But the EMPHASIS of the
sentence < God: He will give Peace to us > is that IT IS GOD who
will be providing us with the Peace - He is the ultimate source.

In summary, the cantillations here indicate EMPHASIS and NUANCE,
the proper tone for the prayer.

Russell Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.Com/mj.htm (my Mail Jewish Archives)


From: Yossie Abramson <yossie@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:38:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Succah on Shmini Azeret

From: Jack Wechsler <wechsler@...>

<I was recently asked what my late father's (Germany) minhag was as to
eating/leaving the Succah on Shmini Azeret (In England).My reply was
that as far as I remember we used to make Yom Tov Kiddush and eat in the
Succah in the evening. In the morning we made Kiddush but ate inside,then
after Mincha we had a short snack ,"Al Hamichyah" ,and finished off with
the Yehi Ratzon.>

I have been trying for a long time to find a source to allow people to
eat meals inside on Shmini Atzeret.
Any of the reasons that are given, (tosfot yom-tov,cold,sfeka d'yoma) are
not new occurrences. These and others have been discussed in detail in
the gemarah. The gemarah paskens that we must eat in a succah on Shmini
Atzeret. The Rambam, Shulchan Oruch, Mishna Brurah, etc. all say the same
If people say it's because it was cold in Poland so that's why they
didn't eat in a succah,that doesn't make sense because you're not in
Poland anymore. Plus, if it rains you also can eat inside. Since it
sometimes rains on Sukkos does that mean that even if it doesn't rain we
can eat indoors? Why are people suddenly maikel on this mitzvah?

I would really love to find a true and reliable source, something that
can compete with the gemarah, shulchan orach all the rishonim, etc. that
gives a BLANKET heter to allow eating inside on Shmini Atzeret. Are the
people that are so machmir on many other things suddenly maikel on this?



From: Hershy Stauber <HershyS@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:01:39 EDT
Subject: V'yoel Moshe

Nachum wrote:
<< Even though I find the approach of the Satmar Rebbe regarding Medinat
 Yisrael uncompelling (Ma'amar Gimmel Shavuos) >>

Uncompelling? I think that the sefer V'yoel Moshe (where the above
Ma'amar Gimmel Shavuos is) was authored through a very scholarly and
methodical approach by the Satmar Rov.  I have yet to see any sefer, of
the same caliber work OR author, that refutes or makes the case against
Satmar Rov's position.  Uncompelling?

-Hershy S.


End of Volume 34 Issue 88