Volume 34 Number 95
                 Produced: Wed Jun 27  7:26:23 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Baby from her brother
         [Saul Davis]
Grain of Salt
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
Israeli vs American tunes
         [Elaine G Robison]
Israeli vs American tunes/ correct pronounciation
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Naming a child at the bris (2)
         [<rubin20@...>, Avi Feldblum]
Protesting Terrorism
         [Leona Kroll]
         [Bernard Raab]


From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:48:14 -0400
Subject: Baby from her brother

        In the opinion of R.M. Fienstein Z'tl, there is no halachich
problem with what she did. It is the act of committing a sin that creates
the Mamzarus, not the family relationship.I don't belive that even those
who forbade artificial insemination belied it caused Mamzarus. Certainly
not the Scach.


From: Saul Davis <sdavis@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:33:50 +0300
Subject: Dentist

Simon Brooke wrote that: Gateshead kehilla (England) require a frum dentist
... ". And, Bernard Raab RIGHTLY questioned this saying, "I would appreciate
being enlightened regarding the halachic (or social) imperative which would
require that a dentist be frum." As for me I certainly know of none.

But why should a frum qehilla not enjoy the services of a frum worker or
frum business and the qehilla support such people and businesses.
Unfortunately, IMHO, frum people consider practising or studying
professions to be wrong and this is most clearly seen in Israel where a
haredi, Israeli-born professional is almost unheard of.

I once heard of a couple who became frum. The wife who was a dentist,
stopped practising and took a menial job to support her husband in
learning.  She said that being a dentist can involve some issurim
involving men. This is clearly not correct: it is standard practise not
to have a medical practitioner alone in a room with a patient of the
opposite sex and why couldn't she treat children or women?

In London, after local kosher shops charged high prices for years, a
non-Jewish businessman opened up a kosher supermarket. Although this
caused the other kosher shops to competitively drop prices and almost
certainly encouraged (less committed) Jews to keep kosher, the local
rabbonim, at the behest of the Jewish shopkeepers, said it is best not
to shop there.

I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts and sources regarding the
contradictions I have raised here!

Saul Davis
Beer-Sheva, Israel


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:18:24 +0300
Subject: Re: Grain of Salt

Nachum Klafter wrote:

>  Nowadays, when
> the standard method of making a public statement to call a press
> conference or write a letter to the editor of a widely read publication,
> rumors about private statements by Torah leaders should be either entirely
> disregarded or at least taken with a proverbial grain of salt. (By the
> way, can anyone explain the origins and precise meaning of that metaphor?
> I've never totally understood it.)

I located the following through www.xrefer.com:

           "with a grain of salt"

           Also, with a pinch of salt. Skeptically, with reservations.
           For example, I always take Sandy's stories about illnesses
           with a grain of salt - she tends to exaggerate. This
           expression is a translation of the Latin cum grano salis,
           which Pliny used in describing Pompey's discovery of an
           antidote for poison (to be taken with a grain of salt). It was
           soon adopted by English writers.

           The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine
           Ammer © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel         PGP: members.xoom.com/shimonl/pubkey.htm


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 09:22:27 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Hechsherim

Here is a story I heard 2 Shimitot ago - maybe it is true!
When saying goodbye at the end of Shemita to a large grower from the Arab
triangle (near Kefar Saba)
the grower told the Mashgiah - "you know why I have such good luck &
I had such large produce? - my mother is Jewish...!"


From: Elaine G Robison <cpaths@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:12:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Israeli vs American tunes

I'm adding to Louse Miller's note about Anim Zmirot. She shows how
Ashkenazic accent differs strongly from Israeli (or perhaps Sephardi),
so that most words in the song are accented differently. Even though
most of the notes remain the same, the melody is remarkably different
when the accents on the words shift. And of course, Sephardi-speaking
American Jews tend to be influenced by the way Ashkenazim accent words
in songs, to a degree that would be unthinkable in a Hebrew-speaking

Ashkenzim did not, however, always accent the songs differently. I
wonder how long it has taken for these accents to shift in a given
song. The Baer Ba-al T'filla, published in Germany in 1877, a compendium
of a few thousand liturgical melodies, gives two Ashkenazic (Polish)
melodies for Anim Zmirot (see item #631 on page 148; this book was
republished in NYC in the 1950's). Both melodies are quite recognizable,
the first one still very popular today. The two musical settings in the
T'fillah accent the words like this (note the German transliteration of
Ashkenazic; I have added the capitalization to reflect the musical

     an-IM s'mi-ROS w'schi-RIM e-e-ROG  ki e-LE-cho naf-SCI sa-a-ROG
which is identical to the accenting Louise shows for Israeli:
    (ahNIM zih-mi-ROTE b'shirIM)

One can infer that in 1877 it was still common for Polish Ashkenazim to
sing this particular song with correct Sephardi accentuation. Somewhere
between then and 1965, the Ashkenazim almost entirely dropped that

Finally, I shall try to describe the actual notes for just the first two
words, to show the remarkable change this particular melody has
undergone. The T'fillah melody is in e minor, 3/4 time. The first note
is an eighth-note upbeat before the bar. Note-durations follow the
letter.  E.g., "8" is an eighth note. A period after the number means a
dotted note. There is one note per word syllable. The melody RISES --
that is, the second note (b) is a fifth above the first (e):

e8 |  [the next three notes are a "dotted" triplet] b(8.) b(16) b(8) [now
an identical triplet:] b(8.) ... and so on

The usual Ashkenaz way to sing this now starts on the down beat, 4/4
| e4 b(8.) b16 b4 b4 and so on

In my own personal experience, I was introduced to the Ashkenaz melody
first, and found it ponderous. I was happy to discover the version in
the T'fillah, which is light and delightful, and probably better
reflects the melody's original intentions.

- tobias robison
Princeton, NJ


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:55:01 +0300
Subject: Re: Israeli vs American tunes/ correct pronounciation

> >>>Experiment: Stop for a second and sing each of the melodies, first
> imagining that you are a 7 year old Israeli, and the second time pretend
> that you are a 9 year old American.  It's NOT the same melody.
> (AH nim ZMIR ot bSHIRim)  vs (ahNIM zih-mi-ROTE b'shirIM) >>>>
> I think, (and I could be wrong), that this is a common mistake. In fact,
> no matter what tune you use, what pronounciation you use, where you live,
> or what your background is (Sefardi, Ashkenazi, hassidic, Polish,
> Lithuanian etc...) it should always be "ahNIM".

I really shouldn't get involved in anything having to do with tunes,
tones, or music, but... I just would like to point out that as far as i
know, the only correct pronunciation is an-`IM.

Nowhere in that word is there a syllable pronounced 'nim', nor is there
any vowel sound associated with the nun. It is a straight 'shva nach',
and just ends the first syllable 'an' (or 'ahn', if you prefer).

As you mentioned, it ought to have (more or less) the same pronunciation
regardless of regional accent: it has no kamatz, no tav, or other
letters that change by community, except for the `ayin which in modern
ashkenazic pronunciation seems to have turned into an alef.

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel         PGP: members.xoom.com/shimonl/pubkey.htm


From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:44:20 -0400
Subject: Naming a child at the bris

> Sure there is: Matthew 13:57: And they were offended in him. But Jesus
> said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own
> country, and in his own house.
> Well, he was Jewish, wasn't he?  And there are other Jewish customs
> whose source we find only in the so-called "New Testament."  An example
> is naming a male Jewish child at his circumcision, whose only ancient
> source is Luke 1:59 (as J. D.  Eisenstein points out in his "Sefer Dinim
> Uminhagim): And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to
> circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of
> his father.

Frankly, I think it is quite easy to distinguish between a quote from
the Christian bible, and the Christian bible mentioning what was
obviously the standard Jewish custom at that time (ie naming at a bris)
which may go back thousands of years before.

From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:50:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Naming a child at the bris

On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 <rubin20@...> wrote:

> Frankly, I think it is quite easy to distinguish between a quote from the
> Christian bible, and the Christian bible mentioning what was obviously
> the standard Jewish custom at that time (ie naming at a bris) which may
> go back thousands of years before.

I'm not sure I am following your comment here. Are you trying to
distinguish between naming a baby boy at the Brit and the quote of Ain
Navi B'Iro? If so, I do not understand how. The language supports that the
statement is not a "new" statement (and even "new" would place it in
Tannaitic times) but an expression that was known among the Jews of the

Avi Feldblum


From: Leona Kroll <leona_kroll@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 01:06:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Protesting Terrorism

 First, I would like to say that it was not my intention to imply that
the Arab terrorism we are currently experiencing is by in its self a
threat to the Jewish State- and i should have made that clear.  Rather,
I do believe that a lack of concern, prayer, and action on the part of
Jews everywhere could threaten further Jewish lives and could ultimately
threaten Israeli sovereignty over Yesha, if not worse, because it is the
Jews who determine the fate of Isreal and noone else, including the PA
and the UN. As Mike Gerver has pointed out, a lack of solidarity with
Israel, expressed in visits here, etc., could and has caused economic
damage, and this should be countered by more visits, more conferences,
etc- as is happening, but more must be done.

The main point in writing my post is that we simply need to speak up
more about Israel and as a Jew, first, and as an Israeli second, and
more personally as a mother of a Jewish child it angers and frustrates
me to the point of tears that so many people are- i feel- remaining
silent in the face of what is happening here.

as far as the statistic- quoted quite famously and to Sharon's electoral
benefit by Barak- that more Jews have been killed by traffic accidents
than by terrorists...??!!??*!? There are no words for this.  Thousands
of Jews are safely visiting Israel each week, thanks to Birthright and
other groups, true. But they aren't visiting any point beyond the green
line, due to safety concerns. They can make that choice. For hundreds of
thousands of Jews who live in Yesha it is less simple, and even for
visitors it is a considerable loss- in addition to the loss we all feel
when we read about the killings, there is another spiritual/cultural
loss, b/c those thousands of young people visiting Israel for the first
time this year on Birthright will not see the Maras HaMachpela or the
kever of Yosef, nor will they be able to hike that beautiful spot where
we first entered Eretz Yisroel with Yehoshua, and no one will ever agian
see the centuries-old shul in Jericho,now that the PA has burned it to
the ground. And- not to discourage people from coming b/c now more than
ever Israel needs you here- but while you'll be safely touring- what
will be happening to those Jews living in Yesha - and what can you do
about it?

i realize this is not a political list- but there are so many mitzvot
involved here that perhaps Avi will post this anyway.  It is written
that Hashem's eyes are on the Land from the beginning of the year to the
end.  Doesn't it also say that we are to emulate Hashem?


From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:59:30 -0400
Subject: Re: T'chelet

For an interesting discussion of T'chelet from a most unlikely source, see 
and watch the webcast of Prof. Roald Hoffman's lecture. It takes about an 
hour (fast forward through the intro stuff) so settle in.
The other lectures are also interesting in different ways, for those who 
have the time.


End of Volume 34 Issue 95