Volume 35 Number 1
                 Produced: Mon Jul  9 23:39:38 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Islam and Idolatry
         [David Jutkowitz]
Israeli vs American tunes/ correct pronunciation
         [Janice Gelb]
Minchas Elozor
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
My 2 cents on Repeating Repeating words words
         [Russell Hendel]
Phrasing in Prayers
         [Ben Katz]
Repetition of Names
         [Warren Burstein]
Sadducees a family plus
         [Idelle Rudman]
Stella D'oro goes dairy
         [Joshua Hosseinof]
Throwing Candy
         [Jack Tomsky]


From: David Jutkowitz <dave@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:32:41 +0200
Subject: Islam and Idolatry

While almost all poskim don't equate Islam to Idolatry, there is an
exception. The "Tziz Eliezer" Vol 14 Siman 91 deals with permissibility
of visiting a mosque. He quotes the Ran in Sanhedrin (daf 61:) who
writes "and the crazy one of the Yishmaelim, even though they don't
mistakenly call him a God, since they bow down to him in the manner of
bowing to a God, it is to be considered as Avoda Zarah, and all the laws
and prohibitions of Avoda Zarah pertain to it. For they don't bow down
out of respect to the dead, rather as in the manner of worshipping a
God". The Tziz Eliezer on the basis of this Ran, concludes that one
shouldn't enter or visit a Mosque.

David Jutkowitz
Petah Tikva


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Israeli vs American tunes/ correct pronunciation

Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...> wrote:

> At 18:13 24/06/01, Dani Wassner, Jerusalem wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 34
> #91 Digest:
> >eg we all sing BAruch umVOOrach beFI kol NEshama, but it should be
> >baRUCH umvooRACH befi kol neshaMA).
> Actually, it should be baRUCH umevoRACH befi kol haneshaMA .
> What you are saying essentially, is that if there is an inconsistency
> between the text and the melody, adapt the melody but leave the text
> unchanged.  Which is exactly my point (and that of others greater than
> I) in crying out against repetitions of words not in the original.

Grammatically, that's fine but when dealing with something that a
congregation sings with the shaliach tzibur, it confuses the heck out of
people. I know, because we have a sh'tz that does this and it annoys
most of the congregation. Some corrections don't affect the tune (e.g.,
saying "v'haYA Adoshem" at the end of Aleinu instead of the
unfortunately more common "v'HAya") but some ruin the scansion and cause
the congregation to be hesitant about singing along, or to stop
altogether. Is it really worth it?

-- Janice


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 21:28:50 +0300
Subject: Re:  Minchas Elozor

Jeanette Friedman wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 34 #87 Digest:

>My uncle, the son-in-law of the Minchas Elozor, was quite an enlightened
>man, who understood many issues not normally confronted by the
>rabbanut. He was Polish, not Hungarian, and learned much from his
>father, the Partzever Rebbe, who was also a silversmith.

Ms. Friedman's late uncle, HaRav Barukh Yehoshu`a Yerahmi'el Rabinowitz
ztz"l, stated, about five years ago, that "you may think that my
father-in-law [the Minhas Elozor] was anti-Zionist.  His was nothing
compared to the anti-Zionism of my father [the Partzever Rebbe]."

Who knows, had either of these rebbes lived to see the Jewish State,
whether they would not have made peace with it, as did their son and

[The clear truth is that we do not know one way or the other, so I would
call an end to the speculation. Ira wants to believe that he would,
Jeannette believes he would not and let's leave it at that. Mod.]

Ms. Friedman writes:

>My uncle wanted to make aliyah, but the chassidim who survived were 
>furious. They wanted him to establish himself in Williamsburgh, Brooklyn, 
>but I don't know how, he established a kehillah in Sao Paulo.

He writes in the first volume of Sefer Divrei Nevonim that he indeed
made aliyah with his first wife, who fell ill and passed away there.
Only afterwards, in 5707, when he remarried, did he go to the United
States.  From there he was sent to South America to raise money, and
remained for fifteen years.  Then he was able to return to Israel, where
he became the Rabbi of Holon.

Is this in accordance with Ms. Friedman's understanding?

(As an aside, there are people who term town rabbis in Israel as "the
Chief Rabbi of Efrat," etc., while in truth there are only four cities
in Israel with official chief rabbis: Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv, Haifa and
Beer-Sheva.  Most towns and cities have their own head rabbi, but he
does not have the title of chief rabbi.)



From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:38:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My 2 cents on Repeating Repeating words words

Although Ira Jacobson correctly refuted Gilad Gevaryahus arguments in
Mail Jewish v34n80, nevertheless I believe Gilads examples can correctly
clarify. I suggest an approach to the repetition-problem and then give

My suggested approach is the following:

It would appear that repetition should be discouraged but can be allowed
for whole verses. Repetition of words or phrases should not be allowed
in Shma or other verses for 3 reasons: (a) It might look like we are
addressing 2 deities (As was pointed out this is a talmudic argument but
does not appear that strong (which is why we have additional arguments)
(b) we might be distorting the meaning of the text (as in HOLY HOLY HOLY
--see below) (c) we might be creating an emphasis where the author did
not want it(See the Rashi cited below). Finally there is a simple way of
KEEPING TRADITIONAL MELODIES but NOT repeating words -- simply hum the
melody without uttering the word a second time! (As a side point,
repeating the SAME verse for TWO different people (as Gilads example of
repeating a verse in the Rosh Chodesh or Simchat Torah laining) is
certainly permissable.)

Now for some sources.

First compare the Rambam Laws of Shma 2:11 < The repeatition of verses
in the recitation of the Shma is disgusting (but not prohibited like the
repetition of words --the talmud gives as a reason that it would appear
to be addressing two deities >

Next I analyze the threefold repetition HOLY HOLY HOLY (Isa 6:3) brought
by Gilad. What would be wrong with adding a 4th?

I cite Rav Hirsch: < The verse shows the ideal way to serve God: Two
wings covering feet, and face and two wings flying > Rav Hirsch
Continues by explaining the verse <You serve God by not looking WHERE
you are going (cover face) not knowing HOW YOU will get there (Cover
feet) but simply DOING GODS WILL (Two wings flying).>

I conclude that the thrice-repeated-Kadosh(holy) corresponds to the
other 3 parts of the verse. This is Tenachically ordained and therefore

As a 3rd issue I cite verses where words are repeated: e.g. THE RIVERS
(See Rashi ibid for many more examples)). As Rashi hints the repetition
is a poetic device that creates a tone of emphasis. But then it
immediately follows that a person who repeats words is creating an
emphasis where it the author did not want an emphasis.  AND IT IS FOR
THIS REASON (Distorting the authors intentions)that it is prohibited.

I believe this multiple reason approach facilitates the analysis.  As a
closing example my custom on BAY ANA RACHITZ is to hum the AY but not
repeat the BAY.

Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d. A.S.A;
http://www.RashiYomi.Com/mj.htm (Visit my mail jewish archives)


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:44:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Phrasing in Prayers

>From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
>    I have just checked the very scholarly edition of the siddur of R'
>Saadya Gaon (pub. Mekitzei Nirdamim, 1941), who has the following text
>for kedusha (I will use Israeli vocalization for convenience; the
>comment in square brackets is by R.  Saadya himself, of course in
>    mimqomkha malkeynu tofi`a vetimlokh `aleynu ki mexhakim anu lakh
>matai timlokh vetimlokh betziyon beqarov beyameynu [cong: amen]vetishkon
>vetitgadel betokh yerushalayim `irkha le`eyneynu ledor vador...
>    We can infer from the break (i.e. the "amen") that the proper
>phrasing in our own (Ashkenazic) text should also be "tishkon, titgadel,

Wouldn't you expect all of the words to be hitpael if this is the case,
i.e. teshtaken, titgadel, vetitkadesh ...?

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
Ph. 773-880-4187, Fax 773-880-8226


From: Warren Burstein <warren@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 01:00:31
Subject: Repetition of Names

Is there a difference between repeating normal words for the sake of the
melody and repeating divine Names?  Is this forbidden even according to
those who permit other repititions, or are there those who permit it?

An example is a tune for Kiddush on Shabbat morning that I often hear,
it goes (repeated words in brackets, the second repetition is the one
with the Name in it, and they say the Name which is represented by
"hashem", they don't say the word "hashem"):

v'shamru bnei yisrael et hashabat laasot et hashabat l'dorotam brit olam
beini uvein bnei yisrael ot hi leolam [ot hi leolam, ot hi leolam]
v'shamru ...
ki sheshet yamim asah hashem [asah hashem] et hashamyim v'et haaretz
v'shamru ...
uvayom hashvii shabat vayinafash [shabat vayinafash, shabat vayinafash]

Is there an additional problem here because in addition to repetitions,
the words are said out of order when they go back to v'shamru?  If so,
is there anyone who permits that?


From: Idelle Rudman <rudmani@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:41:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sadducees a family plus

Apologies for the impression given that the Sadducees were just a family.
They were family based, but of course like-minded people became adherents.
As to the fact that it was a family, the following sources attest to that.

	1.Zadok, the name of a priest, is mentioned nine times in Samuel 1

	2. Zadok, in Kings II, is mentioned as the high priest who
	anoints Solomon king.

	3. Ezekiel 43:19.  "...and it was given to the Priests and the 
	Levites who are from the seed of Zadok..."

	4. Ezekiel 44:15, "...and the Priests and the Levites, the sons of
	Zadok, who kept the watch of My sanctuary..."

	5. Chronicles I, 5:30-41, genealogy of priests, with the family of
	Zadok the only one included. 

	6. Yoma, 23a, "It once happened...mount the ramp,,,stood on the
	steps..."R. Zadok stood on the steps..."

	7. Sanhedrin, 52b, "R. Eleazar b. Zadok...a priest's daughter
	committed adultery..."

	8. Berakhot, 12b, "...R. Zadok testified...redemption of the first
	born of an ass..."

	9. Avot D'R. Natan, Ch. 10, "...two families, Zaddokites and

The above citations testify that the origin of the name comes from the
priestly family.  There are a number of sources that discuss these
sectarian movements. Very good articles are found the EJ.

Idelle Rudman, MLS, MA, Librarian		    tel: 212-213-2230 x119 
Touro College, Women's Division                     fax: 212-689-3515
Graduate School of Jewish Studies	            <rudmani@...>
160 Lexington Avenue, New York, NY  10016


From: Joshua Hosseinof <hosseino@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:59:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: re: Stella D'oro goes dairy

I think the reason why Pareve chocolate prices have gone up is due to a
recent change in the kashruth policy of the OU (and other agencies)
regarding the kashering process for converting milk chocolate equipment
to pareve status.  This policy change was not publicised to the general
public.  If the article is accurate, then in the past we may have been
eating dairy chocolate when we thought it was pareve.  The information
regarding this change is at: (You must scroll down to the section marked


The text at that link was written by Rabbi Avrohom Blumenkrantz.  I
leave it to Avi's discretion whether to include the text or not. [As it
was almost half an issue in length, I have chosen not to, but I have
read the information there and would recommend that anyone who in
interested go to that link and read it. Mod.]


From: Jack Tomsky <jtomsky@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:59:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Throwing Candy

When I attended the bar mitzvah of my cousin's oldest son in New Jersey,
she brought along a red helmet and bags full of candy.  She passed the
candy out to the women and children in their section and more were given
to the men.  At the end of his bar mitzvah, the young man put on the
helmet and everyone threw candy at him from both sides.

I had never seen this before.  It does make a mess though on the floor
and what if someone slips and falls on it hurting themselves?  The candy
in its clear cellophane cover is slippery.

Marilyn Tomsky


End of Volume 35 Issue 1