Volume 35 Number 3
                 Produced: Wed Jul 11  6:32:34 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Daf Yomi Yerushalmi
         [Michael Poppers]
External Ice Dispenser on Shabbos
         [Janet Rosenbaum]
Nakh (2)
         [Seth Kadish, <nzion@...>]
Repetition of Words in Prayer
         [Mark Symons]
Talmidei Chachamim
         [Netanel Livni]
Washing Dishes on Shabbos
         [David Ziants]
Wedding Rings
         [Michael Rogovin]
Yoatsoth = ? (2)
         [Saul Davis, Avi Feldblum]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:11:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia

OK, based on the recommendation of one of the list members, I have tried
to move to the 21st century method of taking in the subscription requests.
The method is called PayPal, and I have put a link on the main mail-jewish
home page (http://mail-jewish.org) for it.

It lets you make the payment from your computer via credit card or from
your checking account, and even works if you are not in the US. I have not
used this before, so I do not know how easy it is, a little bit of playing
around with this seems like it is not bad. You can sign up yourself for
PayPal (I think this is only neccesary for non-US people to use it, US
based can do direct CC or checking payments). If you do signup, using the
link below, I think it might credit $5.00 to my account (but I'll only
know for sure after someone actually does). If you use it, please send me
an email, so I can make sure it all works. If it does not seem to work
when you click on it, please let me know. Anyhoe, here is a blurb from
PayPal about sending money online using it:


Did you know that I can send you money online with PayPal?

PayPal lets you pay anyone with an email address and is the world's
#1 online payment service -- it's accepted on over 3 million
eBay(TM) auctions and thousands of online shops. You can also use
PayPal to pay your friends; it's a convenient way to split the phone
bill with your roommate or send cash to someone in another country.

When you send money through PayPal, you can fund your payments with
your credit card or checking account.  You won't have to worry about
your privacy, because PayPal keeps your account information safe.
Making a purchase with PayPal is more secure than mailing a check
or giving your credit card number to a stranger.  That's why over
8 million people from around the world use PayPal to move money.

Signing up for a PayPal account is easy.  It only takes a couple of
minutes, and if you complete the bonus requirements PayPal will
automatically add $5 to your account balance.  To learn more about
PayPal, visit their website at:


Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:00:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Daf Yomi Yerushalmi

In M-J V34 #96, LSchachter asked:
> They have just started (this past Shabbos) a new cycle of Daf Yomi for
Talmud Yerushalmi. Does anyone know of any online resources for
Yershalmi? <

See http://www.613.org/yerushalmi.html for shiurim by Rabbi YGBechhofer
(for further info.  on RYGB, see http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ


From: Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 17:09:41 +0200
Subject: RE: External Ice Dispenser on Shabbos

>Carolyn Lanzkron <clkl@...>
>  > Does that mean that those who follow this opinion never use ice in
>  > drinks on Shabbat?

No, because even according to this opinion, the nolad "new" water is 
mixed in with the drink and is mvatel (annulled).  Some people do put 
a little water in the bottom of a bowl if they are putting out a bowl 
of ice for people to put into their drinks.



From: Seth Kadish <skadish@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:33:15 +0200
Subject: Nakh

> While I agree that knowledge of Nach is important, I defy anyone
> to be able to understand 42 verse of Ezekiel, Job or Kohelet in 25
> minutes!  (I guess this is my problem with bekiut as oppossed to bi'iyun
> study, and why I could never do a daf yomi).  The Jewish Bible Quarterly
> has a much more reasonable, but still ambititious, trienniel Bible study
> program, but they don't tell you how long to spend each day on your
> assignment.

"Ein adam lomed ela ba-makom she-libbo hafetz" - A person can only learn
in the place that's right for him.  I've always thought this means not
just picking the right yeshiva, but also which subjects within Torah one
studies, and how he studies them.  I'm well aware of the JQR program,
and the IDF rabbinate program (plus there's also a new Amit program that
aims, I think, for over a year).  For those for whom these work - great.
I'm trying to do something new which, by the way, can easily be halved
from the 40-50 pesukim a day that reviewing Nakh in a year would demand.

(I also find that I cannot do daf yomi.  Not because I'm unsuited to
bekiut, but because I find the quantity unreasonable, at least for
myself.  Amud Yomi would be far better.  Perhaps it is better to fully
review a few chosen complete masekhtot many times, and really get to
know them well from a bekiut standpoint, rather than try to plow through
all of Sha"s a couple of times in a lifetime.)

I do not want to detail my Nakh bekiut system yet; I'm currently trying
to write up and explanation of it, and the rationale behind it, which I
will try to post in various places when I'm closer to finishing working
drafts of all the sefarim (IYH around the time of the chagim).
Nevertheless, I will reply regarding the time factor, which I don't
think is unreasonable at all, especially given the people it is meant
for and the flexibility it allows for:

1) Shenayim Mikra - The best way become familiar with biblical hebrew is
to read lots of it, and anyone who has read the parasha twice each week
over the course of many years (especially if he combines it with targum
or rashi, as well as a very basic background in grammar) should be able
to read and understand the basic gist of a section of even some of the
"harder" books like neviim acharonim.  I'm surprised you cite Ezekiel -
a "plain" understanding of most of the book is not very hard at all.
But Job and Kohelet, of course, are among the hardest books of all, and
I agree that they may take longer.  My first reading of sections of Job
took me well over half an hour in order to finish it in a month; I spent
time jotting notes between the lines and in the margins.  But subsequent
readings took much less time.  So if one sees this as a long-term
project of continual review, especially for a person who begins with
some familiarity with the language through reading Shenayim Mikra, then
my time estimate is quite fair.

2) For people without such language familiarity - start with reading a
daily section in a good translation!

3) Part of what makes an initial reading hard is that one doesn't know
anything about what he is about to read, and then if the language is
hard as well, the initial reading may prove impossible.  What I've tried
to do is let the reader know how what he reads fits into the context of
the entire book *before* he reads it.

Seth (Avi) Kadish
Karmiel, Israel

From: <nzion@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 16:02:55 +0300
Subject: Re: Nakh

	Hi. My question is why the skepticism? Ok there are portions
which will take a lot more intensive study for basic understanding. Then
again there are psukkim in Yechezkeil which Rashi didn't understand at
all. The idea is that with studying Nach during a short time each day
one can get to be fluent with (almost) all of Nach within a year. While
other people who are turned off from studying Nach because of your
point, never get to know any Nach.

	From a personal experience I can say that this approach has paid
off for me. Sure there are a few portions which I didn't understand. But
as time goes on, when I have some free time I devote it to studying the
difficult parts.
	Yehuda Landy
(02) 5341813, 5341297, FAX 5341439
HOMEPAGE http://www.neveh.org


From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:00:59 +1000
Subject: Re: Repetition of Words in Prayer

In MJ34/94 Michael Poppers wrote:

In the k'dusha said during the Shaliach Tzibbur's reading of Mussaf for
Shabbos or for Yom Tov, you'll notice that the last word of each
Biblical phrase is repeated: -- "Kadosh...k'vodo"/"K'vodo...
 ...mim'komo"/"Mim'komo hu yifen..."...

These would not be repetitions if the ShaTZ only says the parts aloud
beginning with
K'vodo, Mim'komo, Echad (i.e. not Kadosh, Baruch, Shema, which, according to
ArtScroll at least, should be said together with the Tzibur).

Mark Symons
Melbourne Australia


From: Netanel Livni <n_livni@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:01:01 -0700
Subject: Talmidei Chachamim

I noticed that some books use as the plural form of talmid chacham,
talmidei chachamim while some use talmidim chachamim.  Each form assumes
that the term talmid chacham means something different. talmidei
chachamim assumes that a talmid chacham is a student of a chacham while
talmidim chachamim assumes that the talmidim are chachamim.  Does anyone
have any clues as to which is the correct form?

Netanel Livni


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:49:45 +0300
Subject: Re: Washing Dishes on Shabbos

I wish to thank Josh Backon and Mark Feldman for the responses to
my question concerning using a synthetic sponge to wash the dishes
on Shabbat.

Also discussed the matter briefly  with a knowledgeable person in my
Although he states that such a p'sak is not inconceivable, he feels
it is not the normal p'sak amongst the achronim (later Rabbis).
He brought the issue that one does not normally make a distinction
on the microscopic level when it comes to determining the status of
something for halachic purposes. I.e. if it looks like a natural fabric,
it should be considered so (even d'oraita), even if it is synthetic.
According to the Eglei Tal, which Josh brought, because there is the
shitta (reasoning method) of Rashi, it might be d'rabbanan even if
natural. Thus a microscopic distinction is not relevant according to
this shitta.

I guess the rav who gave the p'sak, which I originally heard, either
based himself on the sources that Josh brought, or followed a
reasoning which is identical to therein. Is there anyone on this
list from the NW4 area of London,England who recognises the p'sak I
am referring to, knows the rav in question (the name of whom I will
confirm in private correspondence), and can say whether this is in
fact the reasoning that he used?

Thank you in advance.

David Ziants

Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


From: Michael Rogovin <rogovin@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:42:28 -0400
Subject: Wedding Rings

Can anyone provide sources and origins (both halachic and historic) for
the various requirements applicable to wedding rings, e.g. no stones,
solid (no design that creates openings), gold, etc? When did the use of
a finger ring start and when did it become prevalent as the object of
value for the kinyan?


Michael Rogovin


From: Saul Davis <sdavis@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:29:54 +0300
Subject: Yoatsoth = ?

Chana/Heather Luntz and Russell Hendel wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 34 #80 and
#97 about Yoatsoth.

I would like to know what the difference between a Rabbi and a Yoetseth (or
Yoets) is. Remember that nowadays there are no real Rabonnim because there
is no real smikha. A man who knows (some) halkha can become what is known as
a Rabbi. What about a woman who knows halkha, what is she? It seems that
calling a female who is poseqeth halakha (= decides halkhic issues) a
"Yoetseth" is just a neat way of not calling her a Rabbi. (OK I know of
course some will say that the Yoetsoth are not real posqoth and that they
work under rabbinical guidance. Really!)

Those who are against women rabbis should be against yoatsoth and vice
versa. Maybe those who are against women rabbis should be against women
studying halkha and talmud altogether. There seem to be some discrepancies

Saul Davis
Beer-Sheva, Israel

From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:21:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yoatsoth = ?

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, sdavis wrote:
> I would like to know what the difference between a Rabbi and a Yoetseth (or
> Yoets) is. Remember that nowadays there are no real Rabonnim because there
> is no real smikha. A man who knows (some) halkha can become what is known as
> a Rabbi. What about a woman who knows halkha, what is she? It seems that
> calling a female who is poseqeth halakha (= decides halkhic issues) a
> "Yoetseth" is just a neat way of not calling her a Rabbi. (OK I know of
> course some will say that the Yoetsoth are not real posqoth and that they
> work under rabbinical guidance. Really!)

I think there are two critical issues here to understand and I think a
discussion to clarify them would be of value to the list. One is to
understand what is a "Rabbi" and the other is to understand what is "p'sak
halacha". I think that many of the functions of a "Rabbi" are not related
actual "p'sak halacha" and within these functions are activities that
there is a problem for a woman to perform. The are actions/replies related
to questions of halacha that may be posed to a person (Rabbi, Yoetz, lay)
in which responding with the halacha is not an act of "p'sak" and
therefore anyone can do. Anyhow, I'll open this up to broader discussion
by the group.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


End of Volume 35 Issue 3