Volume 35 Number 24
                 Produced: Wed Jul 25  5:50:56 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrivia - HIV/AIDS service organizations
         [Zev Sero]
Adopting Jewish versus nonJewish children
         [Sam Saal]
Ashknaz, Sefarad, Edot Mizrach
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
         [Moshe Schor]
Hasiddur v'ha-tefilah
         [Leona Kroll]
Holocaust Archive
Nosach Achid (="Sefard") in Israel (2)
         [Dani Wassner, Moshe Goldberg]
Nusach Achid (2)
         [Mike Gerver, Shmuel Himelstein]
Nusach Sefard (Chasidim) in Israel
         [Dov Teichman]
A rational approach to Ashkenaz vs Sefard
         [Russell Hendel]
Sefard and Ashkenazi Davening
         [Eli Turkel]


From: Zev Sero <Zev@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:38:10 -0400
Subject: Administrivia - HIV/AIDS service organizations

Rise Goldstein <Rbg29861@...> wrote:

> If anybody knows of HIV/AIDS service organizations dedicated to
> observant clients [...] please e-mail me privately with the
> particulars.

Avi, I think it's worth publicising this here as well:
The Tzvi Aryeh AIDS foundation is exactly as described above.  It
provides a hotline staffed by frum Jews, who can answer questions
in Hebrew, Yiddish, Russian or English; it has a kosher food program
for people with AIDS; it puts people in touch with understanding
Rabbonim for counseling; and all of this is done in the strictest
confidence, which unfortunately is necessary in much of the frum
community today. 

  Tzvi Aryeh AIDS Foundation
  P.O. Box 150, Cathedral Station
  New York, NY 10025


From: Sam Saal <ssaal@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:16:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Adopting Jewish versus nonJewish children

Hillel E. Markowitz <Sabba.Hillel@...> wrote:

>These questions also apply to adoption and are the reason some people say
>that parents should adopt a nonJewish infant (with a valid conversion)
>unless they know the family of the infant being adopted.

I understand this reason for adopting a nonJewish child. It does
simplify things for parent, child, and LOR. But just as the Jewish
community is not immune to drug abuse and other societal ills, we have
our share of Jewish children who need loving, nurturing (in religious
and every other sense) homes in observant families and
communities. Where does following a "nonJewish only" adoption policy
leave these children?

Sam Saal         <ssaal@...>
Vayiphtach HaShem et Pea haAtone


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:58:15 +0200
Subject: Ashknaz, Sefarad, Edot Mizrach

I have a book entitled Yalkut Minhagim, put out by the Israeli Ministry
of Education, Department of Religious Education, in 1977. I assume it's
out of print, but libraries might have it. The purpose of the book was
to have teachers become sensitive to other communities than their own.

It has lists of Minhagim, written by people from the different
communities, including Ashkenaz, Iraq, Chassidim, Chabad, Kurdistan,
Libya, Morocco, Iran, Tunisia, Jerba, and Yemen.

Each has sections such as Nusach of the prayers (not the prayers
themselves), the Shul, prayer on the weekday, Shabbat, Motza'ei Shabbat,
Yom Tovim, Rejoicing and Mourning, Miscellaneous.

It makes fascinating reading.

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Moshe Schor <MOESCH@...>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:45:18 EDT
Subject: Re: Calendar

<<Daniel mentioned:
As far as the big difference between the jewish version of the length of
the first temple and the goyishe count, this has been discussed by the
rabbonim and apperntaly the question is over the length the Persian kings
ruled in Eretz yisrael.>>

Which Rabbonim discussed this issue besides the controversial approach
of Rabbi Schwab? What are some of the approaches on this issue? As I
understand it,the chronology affects the identity of the Shmittah year
so it has halachik ramifications asa well.


From: Leona Kroll <leona_kroll@...>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 01:19:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hasiddur v'ha-tefilah

> Rabbi Adin Even-Yisael's (Steinzatz) two volume book "Hasiddur
> v'ha-tefilah" gives information not only on the Ashkenazi and Sephardi
> rites, but also Sephard, Yeminite and Italian.  I don't know if the book
> has been translated into English.

There is a one-volume work in English by Rav Even-Yisroel called "Jewish
Prayer" which covers these same topics. I'm not sure if it includes
everything that was in the Hebrew original, but it offers a lot of
insight into the history and development of tefillah in general and of
the different nusachim.

By the way, the Rav davens @ the Tzemach Tzedek shul in the Old City on
Shabbos and he occasionally gives shiurim there on Shabbos mornings
(around 8) if anyone is interested. Before and after davening he takes


Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 05:33:32 EDT
Subject: Holocaust Archive

I was told there is a computerized Holocaust archive accessible to the
public which lists individual towns & names...does anyone know the web


From: Dani Wassner <dani@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:49:17 +0200
Subject: Nosach Achid (="Sefard") in Israel

>I've never been in a regular Israeli minyan that allows
>the chazzan to choose whatever nusach he wants

Actually, I have seen many such shuls in Israel although I would agree
that they are mainly "mixed" minyans- eg university, army bases. In
addition, probably the most common form of mincha minyan in Israel is in
the work place. In my experience such office minyans rarely have a set
nusach, but simply rely on the chazan choosing.

Similarly, many "shteiblach" type institutions. I often daven in
Jerusalem's Old Katamon shtieblach. There, one can get a minyan for
shacharit every 15 mins from 6am until 10am (ma'ariv every 15 mins until
midnight). Once again, the shaliach tzibbur davens his own nusach.

The interesting question that arises from all of this is: what does one
do when the chazzan is davening a different nusach to you? What kedusha
do you answer? What do you do during kaddish (Brich Hu or amen)? etc...
In addition, should the chazzan accomodate the kahal- eg should a
chazzan davening ashkenaz say the vidui before tachanun during mincha
(or shacharit on non-Torah reading days)?

Any answers?

Dani Wassner, Jerusalem

From: Moshe Goldberg <mgold@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:24:18 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Nosach Achid (="Sefard") in Israel

Keshet (Ramat Hagolan) has one central synagogue (a permanent building),
and on several visits there I have seen that each chazan leads the
prayers according to his own custom. Thus, on a Shabbat morning there
might be Shacharit in nusach Ashkenaz and Mussaf according to Eidot
Hamizrach. I always understood that this was a conscious decision
because of the mixed background of the members, who wanted a single
synagogue without forcing anybody to abandon his original
customs. Keshet is a moshav shitufi, that is separate living by family
but communal property.

Moshe Goldberg


From: Mike Gerver <Mike.Gerver@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:49:00 +0200
Subject: Nusach Achid

Seth Kadish writes in v35n21,
> On the one hand, I've never been in a regular Israeli minyan that allows
> the chazzan to choose whatever nusach he wants (though others have told
> me about such places).  The only exception has been army reserve duty.
> I suspect that TA university isn't a typical example precisely because
> it is such a "mixed crowd" of people who are thrown together temporarily
> (like the army).  But in permanent communities - I've never seen this
> done.

This is done at Beit Knesset Ariel in Raanana, and both nusach Ashkenaz
and nusach Sephard are commonly used there.  It is also done, at least
in principle, at the Beit Knesset Hagadol in Raanana, but there only a
rather small minority actually use nusach Ashkenaz.  I'm not sure if it
is also the official policy of Lechu Neranana in Raanana, the shul that
Eli Turkel usually goes to, but I think it is.

What these shuls have in common with each other, and with Tel Aviv
University, is a large number of Anglos, which is decidedly not the case
where Seth lives, in Karmiel.  I think that may be the reason for his
different experience.

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel

From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:43:48 +0200
Subject: Nusach Achid

In all my 26 years in Israel, I don't recall ever being in a davening
where Nusach Achid was used. In fact, the only time I've ever seen the
Nusach Achid siddur was in he army, but I don't remember it actually
being used.

In my neighborhood of Ramot, Jerusalem, the shul I attend - which is
almost totally Ashkenazi - the Chazan uses whatever Nusach he generally
Davens in, but limited to Ashkenaz or Sefard. In fact, when I was Gabbai
there I had a sign made up which could be put up to tell what the Nusach
to be used would be (although I think we used it twice and retired it -
it was still a good idea ...).

The other shul I Daven at, which has a predominance of Ashkenazim but a
sizable minority of Edot Mizrach, goes even further, and there one can
hear a chazan using the Nusach of Edot HaMizrach.

Of course, in places like the main bus station shul in Jerusalem, or in
any other public place (e.g., hospitals, shopping centers, etc.), it's
the chazan who decides.

And lastly, when I lived in Arzei Habira, a basically Charedi mixture of
Ashenaz and Sefard, the official printed constitution ("Takkanon")
stated that in the middle of the week the Nusach was that of the Chazan,
whoever he was, but on Shabbat the Nusach had to be Ashkenaz, as that
represented the majority of the people there.

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Dov Teichman <DTnLA@...>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:28:25 EDT
Subject: Re: Nusach Sefard (Chasidim) in Israel

Seth & Sheri Kadish <skadish@...> writes:

<< What happened, to the best of my understanding, is this: The Ari
(despite the fact that his father was Polish) developed his system of
kavvanot according to a sefardic nosah.  Thus the chasidim, quite
understandably, wanted to davven according to the nosah of the Ari,
which they knew was "sefardic".  But in reality a "chulent" was created
when the attempt was made to adapt the traditional Ashkenazic nosah to
the sefardic one. The most important attempt to impose some order on
this hybrid nosah was made by the Alter Rebbe of Lubavitch, which is the
reason why Lubavitcher chasidim call their nosah "Nosah ha-Ari."

Nevertheless, anyone who lives a true sefardic tradition needs but to
glance at a "nosah sefard" siddur for a few seconds to immediately
realize that it is not really sefardic. >>

I believe it is unclear exactly what nusah the Arizal used. It wasnt
necessarily Sephardic though. Certain things he said explicitly to say
or not say. Efforts to put the pieces of this puzzle together was done
by people like The Baal Hatanya, R' Shabsi and others. Because of this
divergence, many Chassidic groups developed different nusahs based on
how their leaders gave weight to different versions, as well as some
weight to the fact that Chassidim ARE Ashkenazim and cannot ignore their
pre-Arizal tradition entirely. Thus, many Chassidim say "Baruch Hashem
LeOlam" even though the Arizal probably didn't say it, but he wasn't
necessarily against it.  Another example is the criticism by the Minchas
Elozer of the Baal Hatanya's version that he ignored the Tur who wrote
that in Shmoneh Esrei there are a specific number of words per bracha
allowed.  Then there is the issue of whether the Arizal was Ashkenazic
or a Sephardic...

Dov Teichman


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:42:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: A rational approach to Ashkenaz vs Sefard

There have been many postings on Nusach Ashkenaz vs Nusach Sefarad
(e.g. v35n12). Sources and anecdotes have been given.

As people in Mail Jewish know I like to supplement discussions with
reasons and issues.

In this case I am looking for a small set of principles which EXPLAIN
the various differences between Nusach Aschkenaz and Sefarad. Does such
a set of principles exist? Is so what are they? As the Talmud frequently
says: BMAI KAMIFLEEGEE: On what fundamental issue do they disagree

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.Com/mj.htm


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:42:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sefard and Ashkenazi Davening

>I'm actually quite curious as to why our mutual observations are so

Anyone who has ever davened in Itzkowitz in Bnei Brak or several similar
places in Jerusalem is well aware that the Chazan chooses the nusach for
that davening.  In these places one may several different nusachs being
said simultaneously in different rooms. I suspect the same applies to
any local "business" minyanim in downtown Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. I know
of one place in Raanana that does this for mincha but not other
tefillot. In fact they have a sign to hang so that the participants know
what nusach is being followed (this is actually a problem at the
beginning of kedusha).  The last time I was Alon Shvut (several years
ago) they also had the Chazan decide on the nusach even on shabbat.

On the other hand in my son's yishuv, Revava, the rabbi insisted that
sefard and edot mizrach split rather than having any combined nusach
achid or random nusach.  R> Ovadiah Yosef is also very insistent on
splitting into separate minyanim.  When my kids went to religious day
schools in Israel they always davened in Nusach Sefard (Chassidic) and
never in Nusach Achid.

The only suggestion of our different experiences is that there is a
difference between the center of the country and the Galilee.

Eli Turkel


End of Volume 35 Issue 24