Volume 35 Number 33
                 Produced: Tue Jul 31  6:37:38 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Best Real Estate=Property with Maximum Yield: Like Stocks
         [Mechael Kanovsky]
Gelatin in Medicines?
         [Philip Brooke]
Genetic Engineering
         [Akiva Wolff]
The religion Science Age Controversy
         [Russell Hendel]
Sale of a Shul
         [Neal B. Jannol]
Shabbat Guidance for non-Jews
         [Carl Singer]
Songs that your father never sang
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Tevilas Keilim
         [Nachman Yaakov Ziskind]
Why does the Torah request "meitav haaretz" payment?
         [Meylekh Viswanath]
Worcherstershire Sauce
         [Wendy Baker]


From: Mechael Kanovsky <kanovsky@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:00:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Best Real Estate=Property with Maximum Yield: Like Stocks

> From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
>  Betzael Posy and Danielle Cohn in v35n13 deal with the fascinating
> problem of why Damagers have to pay from the BEST real estate. After
> all isnt $100 of property in Downtown Manhattan worth the same as
> a $100 field in Iowa. (One suggested answer is in terms of ease of
> sale: Manhattan property would sell quicker)

The question I always had with paying for damages with land is that if I
owe $100 due to damaging someone and I pay him with land, the size of
land that he will get will be a postage size piece and the size will get
smaller and smaller as the price of real-estate that I am paying from
goes from worse to better. A $100 piece of real-estate in mid-town
manhattan is probably big enough to stick two toothpick into it (I would
say that it would be pretty hard to sell that size of land).

Mechael Kanovsky


From: Philip Brooke <Philip_Brooke@...>
Subject: Gelatin in Medicines?

I'm looking for feedback on the topic of gelatin in medicines,
specifically vitamins. I know this is a rather contentious issue, but I
was wondering what the differing views are. I had heard that the Rov
(Soloveichik) had permitted gelatin in medicines, but then again he's
frequently misquoted.  Any sources would be greatly appreciated, thanks!


From: Akiva Wolff <wolff@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:20:33 +0200
Subject: Genetic Engineering

I am doing research on genetic engineering - particularly on genetically
modified foods - from a Jewish perspective. The majority opinion seems
to be that there is no halachic problem with genetically engineering
plants and animals - neither from the point of view of kashrut, nor of
kilayim.  I am finding objections to genetic engineering of plants and
animals on an "ethical" basis - that even if it's not halachically
forbidden we shouldn't be doing it if we don't have to for the sake of
pikuach nefesh.  Does anyone have any helpful information or sources on
this subject?

Akiva Wolff


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:44:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: The religion Science Age Controversy

Bernard Raab in v35n14 while discussing the Torah-Jehoshua thread
makes the following comment: >>For a serious effort to reconcile the
scientific" age of the universe with our biblical 5700 years, see ..<<
Bernard then give Three references are then given. Bernard continues

>As physicists have known since Einstein, time is not an absolute or
invariant parameter, but depends on the observer's "frame of reference".
Schroeder claims and purports to show (I am not qualified to judge with
what success) that 5700 years in G-d's frame of reference is equal to
roughly 15 billion years of Earth time.<

In fact the issue of the Age of the Universe was the theme at the
3rd international conference on Torah and Science, held in Dec 1999.
The first round of the proceedings was recently published in the journal
BOR HATORAH Volume 12e around April 2000. The website of BOR HATORAH is
at http://www.BOrHaTorah.Org/.

Furthermore Volume 13e, due to be published in Sept or so of this year
NOT THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE. The text of the presentation of this
article may be found at http://www.RashiYomi.Com/gen-1.htm

This article has about half a dozen references (Footnote 1) to secular
books and many other good references. Besides giving a comprehensive
symbolism methdology(cf my posting v35n16) it offers a new approach to the
Religion-Science-Age problem.

Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d., A.S.A.;http://www.RashiYomi.Com/


From: <nbj@...> (Neal B. Jannol)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 9:49:31 -0700
Subject: Sale of a Shul

A Chabad in the San Fernando Valley area of Los Angeles is going to be
"taken" by the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority
for the construction of a rapid bus freeway through that area.

Ironically enough, the plan only went through because of the very strong
support of two Jewish legislators.

I remember a mishnah from Megilla that mandated what could be done with
funds from the sale of a shul, which this what this basically is.  I
doubt that the Chabad (although I hope they can) will be able to find a
replacement location in the area, the zoning laws are pretty
anti-synagogue, and they were only there because they were

I know that this is not a Halachic board, but purely on a theoretical basis,
are the sale proceeds technically restricted in anyway - because of
"maaleen bekodesh, ve'ain moreedeen" or because many congregants
will be displaced.

Neal B. Jannol
Riordan & McKinzie


From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:04:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Shabbat Guidance for non-Jews

> From: Mike Stein <mike@...>
>  When I invite non-Jewish friends to my home for dinner on shabbat, there
>  is necessarily a certain amount of explaining -- now we're going to do
>  this, why we do that, don't turn off the bathroom light ....  For many
>  of them a few words suffice, but there are some who would really
>  appreciate the opportunity to read ahead of time in a little more depth
>  about what they are going to experience.

A piece of masking tape over a light switch is probably more effective
than a tome on electricity.  Re: Kitchen -- just ask folks to stay out
-- or block off the Milchig (I presume Shabbos Dinner is Fleischig) side
-- things that come as second nature to you are not easy to read & do
(or not do.)

If your purpose is education, rather than avoiding some kind of
"mess-up" -- then that's a different story -- there are several
"beginner's texts" that you might use -- but they don't focus
exclusively on what I'll call "mechanics."

Kol Tov

Carl Singer


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:30:13 +0200
Subject: Songs that your father never sang

Many people have started using a new version of Menucha VeSimcha - which
I can hardly transmit here. I understand that one of the many singing
groups publicized it on a CD.

However, the song is not new. It's a 1930's or so Zionist Halutzic song,
sung at a tempo probably twice that of the present one.

The song is in Yiddish: "Arum dem faier."

One verse in it is very clearly Zionist: "Eretz Yisroel is unzer
shtrebn" - Eretz Israel is where we are striving for."

I wonder if the knowledge of that origin will make a difference in terms
of whether anyone will no longer sing it.

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Nachman Yaakov Ziskind <awacs@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 101 09:58:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tevilas Keilim

From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
> Has anyone heard the idea that a vessel may be used one time before
> immersion in a Mikveh? If so, what is the source for this law? 
> I have heard this from so many people, yet i cannot find a singe
> halachic source that allows it. 

- I'd been taught that a keli purchased ONLY for the contents - like a
soda bottle - need not be toiveled - since the bottle has no importance
on its own; one desires only the contents. But a vessel that has its own
significance, even for one use, must be immersed. No "one free bite"

Or, maybe you were thinking of the ruling that a metal can, opened with
a can opener, need not be immersed? The theory here, according to those
who hold that it is forbidden to open a can with a can opener on
Shabbos, is that *you* are making the keli; therefore, it need not be



From: Meylekh Viswanath <pviswanath@...>
Subject: Re: Why does the Torah request "meitav haaretz" payment?

>From: <rubin20@...>
>I wonder about this for years. After all, seemingly, a $1,000 prime
>property, and a $1,000 poor property have the same value, $1,000.
>Presumably the appraisal is done under the supervision of Bes Din. As I
>have become more involved in Real Estate I have come to understand it
>better. To give an example: land in upstate NY sell for $500 an acre. A
>lot if Flatbush goes for $450,000. So 900 acres in upstate NY has the same
>value as a lot in Flatbush. The difference is, it may take you a few
>years to sell your acreage in upstate NY (all the while your incurring
>holding costs like property tax and insurance). The lot in Flatbush you
>can sell in a few weeks.

That may be true; however the lack of liquidity of the upstate parcel
affects its pricing.  Hence the lot selling for $500 an acre in New York
is probably of worse quality than the lot selling for the same price
upstate.  In other words, a lot is a package deal consisting of land
quality plus liquidity.  Hence your argument, while a step in the right
direction, is not sufficient to answer the question.  I'm, in fact,
developing a model that uses this approach.  At the moment, I'm trying
to get information on real estate markets in those days.  Any
information, anybody out there?  In the gemore, or elsewhere?

Meylekh Viswanath


From: Wendy Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 21:33:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Worcherstershire Sauce

Something has come up regarding the OU and worchestershire sauce on a
Jewish food mailing list Iam on.  As you know, on the Lea and Perrins
worcherstershire sauce (ws from here on) there is a mark of OU fish, I
assume because of the anchovies in the sauce.  Th other day I purchased
America's Choice ws, with an OU-but no fish mark indicated- thinking that
I could use this in my meatloaf.  When I got home I looked carefully at
the ingredients list and lo and behold what is there, anchovies.  Why is
one brand marked fish and the other not?  Can I assume battel for the
America's Choice and use it in the meatloaf, but wouldn't that get into
lechatilllah-bi di eved questions?  In the words of that old joke "how can
two jars of sauce have anchovies in them and one is marked fish and the
other not?  I saw a third bottle of ws, French's, marked OU Parev, but did
not check the label.  I certainly will next time I am in the store!  It
seems a unduly complicated system of labelling for one sauce and one
certifying organization.  It is some historical reason, as Lea and Perrins
was the original ws?  I suppose I should check the OU website for a
question section.

Wendy Baker


End of Volume 35 Issue 33