Volume 35 Number 57
                 Produced: Tue Oct 16  6:43:49 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

13 principles of faith
         [Bernard Raab]
Anthropomorphic Expressions in the Torah
         [Daniel M Wells]
DR Micael Wyschogrod
         [Yitzhack Rubin]
Duchening duchen during Neilah in Israel
Duchening on Ne'ilah
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Electric shavers
         [David Ziants]
Opinions of Rishonim
         [Eliezer Finkelman]
Or Zarua and women's zimmun
         [Chaim G Steinmetz]
seven species/ seven holidays
         [David and Toby Curwin]
Source for Hillel and moshiah
         [Saul Davis]
Travel on Hag
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
Verses in Rosh Hashana Musaf
         [Ben Katz]
         [Meira Welt]


From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:26:56 -0400
Subject: Re: 13 principles of faith

>In passing the so-called 13 principles of faith were not produced by
>Maimonidees. They ALL explicitly occur in the Bible: Thus the 1st
>decalogue mentions the existence of God and the prohibition of
>Russell Jay Hendel;http://www.RashiYomi.Com/mj.htm

What about the 13th; the belief in the coming of "ha-moshiach". Remember;
you said "explicitly".
Gmar tov--Bernie R.


From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:32:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Anthropomorphic Expressions in the Torah

>The real question should be who didn't, and one prominent figure on the
>very short list is rambam.  rambam spent the first book of the guide,
>essentially, arguing that all of the anthropomorphic expressions in the
>torah are not meant to be taken literally.  obviously people did.  We
>are used to the idea of God not having a body, but if one thinks about
>it, there are 1000 references in the Bible to God's hand, feet,
>nostrils, etc.  If we believe the bible to be true, why shouldn't we
>believe He has a body?  This is the notion rambam had to combat.
>Ben Z. Katz, M.D.

This still doesn't answer the question. Who. The More Nevuchem was not
aimed at rabbis. Which Rabbis had such a belief. (Note: the Ravvad in
his glosses dose say 'Greater and better [than the Rambam] have had such
a view of HaShem. But the Ravvad himself isn't subscribing to such a
view, just defending those who held it as not being Apikorsim).


From: Daniel M Wells <wells@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:46:25 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Chodosh

I came across in last week's Yated's English paper an invitation to
order a guide to the mitzvah of Chodosh. Perhaps members of this list
may be interested.

The guide is refreshed 3 times a year.

It brings down the situation in most of the various U.S. UK, and other
major towns with frum communities.

Send an email to <Chodosh-request@...> with first line

get Guide.txt

No subject line needed. Make sure to write EXACTLY as above. Note that
the word 'Guide' requires a capital 'G'. The process is completely

Regular updates are sent by sending an email to

No subject or body line is needed for this address.



From: Yitzhack Rubin <ytzrubin@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:14:39 +0200
Subject: DR Micael Wyschogrod

My memory tells me that Dr, Wyschogrod is an Observant Orthodox scholar
in the realm of Jewish Philosophy. He is an excellent teacher who serves
on the faculty of Rice University and the University of Houston.  He has
made serious contributions in the area of Interfaith Dialogue and has
represented Judaism in Scholarly circles- both academic and Church
conferences . He is a prolific author and Lecturer. Among his books are
: 1, "Jews and Jewish Christianity'' [,Ktav publisher]. with David
Berger and 2, ''Body of Faith-God and the people Israel'[,Jacob Aronson.
publisher'] .

Rabbi Yitzhack Rubin    <ytzrubin@...>


From: <NJGabbai@...>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:23:42 EDT
Subject: Re: Duchening duchen during Neilah in Israel

In our shul in NJ, at 1 Minyan, they duchan at Neilah on Yom Kippur.  I
think they close the Aron.  Not sure, though


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 05:50:47 +0200
Subject: Duchening on Ne'ilah

As a Kohen who lives in Israel, I can confirm that there is Duchening at
Neilah, provided it is reached before Shekiah (with a couple of minutes
leeway according to some Poskim, so I understand). I've never seen the
Aron closed before Duchening at that time. What often happens, if they
get to Duchening before Shekiah, is that there's a gap of possibly 20
minutes to fill. Most places in this predicament say Avinu Malkeinu
responsively all the way through.

Shmuel Himelstein


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:51:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Electric shavers

I wish to thank everyone who answered my query about the new shaver
model. These shavers are now widely available in Israel.

Yitzchak Roness posting to mail-Jewish basically summarises the
responses I had received on this subject to date.

Machon Zomet have just put out a new list, and they could not give a
hechsher to some shavers in the 6000 series. Their tests are performed
on the basis of the article in Techumin.

They have now published their opinion again on this matter in the
latest edition of Shabbat-B'Shabbato - Parshat Bereishit 
        No 878: 26 Tishrei 5762 (13 October 2001) which was sent
in their email edition, and I think will soon be available on
their web site:  http://www.moreshet.co.il/zomet/

A fax number to write to, in order to receive their list, is given in
the article there.

I was also shown the t'shuva of HaRav Nachum Rabinovitch, who is the
Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshivat Hesder here in Ma'aleh Adumim, and which
Yitzchak summarises. In his opinion a beard trimmer is *not* mashchit,
because it cannot not cut so close as the main shaving head, although
this could be megale'ach (depending on whether there is a scissors

I would be interested to know whether the definitions are understood
this way by any other poskim.

Yitzchak notes that both of these opinions are "chidushim" and are not
the mainstream understanding.  If so, what is the mainstream
understanding and how would the mainstream opinion relate to the new
6000 series shavers?

(R. Rappaport is the grandson of R. Moshe Feinstein and received a
haskama for his decision here. Of course not everyone might follow his
p'sak, but isn't Rav Moshe Feinstein usually considered one of the
mainstream poskim?).

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


From: <Finkelmans@...> (Eliezer Finkelman)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:41:31 EDT
Subject: Re: Opinions of Rishonim

Dear Mail Jewish: A number of posters to Mail-Jewish have expressed the
judgment that our masters and teachers the Rishonim expressed various
ideas, once legitimate parts of the Jewish conversation, which have
since become heretical.  I have also heard this judgment outside of

Which leads me to a couple of questions: 

1) By what process did these ideas become heretical? Who made that
decision?  How? Did later rabbinic leaders all decide, or did the
community reach a consensus, or did this decision arise in dialogue
between rabbinic leaders and the community?

2) Can an idea become heretical even though it might qualify as "true,"
and another idea become obligatory even though it might qualify as
"false"?  If not, if obligatory idas have to qualify as true, and
heretical ones as false, then how did we discover the truth or falsity
of these ideas which the Rishonim debated? I guess we must have gathered
more information about the truth or falsity of these ideas. When did
that happen? How?

3) I grant the value of a relatively uniform standard in practical
halakhah: I have to know if I can eat the food you cooked; you have to
know if you can eat in my sukkah.  If you decide to kasher liver
according to Maimonides' recipe, even though you depend on a great
Rishon, you may have trouble getting anyone who keeps kosher now to eat
with you.

Can the same considerations apply to philosophical speculation?
Eliezer Finkelman  

An example of the judgment:
 I think we have to distinguish between previous times and our own.
 Though many of these areas were once controversial the principles of the
 Rambam have become universally accepted. Thus, rishonim who disagree are
 certainly not heretics nevertheless anyone today who disagrees would be
 considered a heretic (eg Spinoza).


From: Chaim G Steinmetz <cgsteinmetz@...>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:35:02 -0400
Subject: Or Zarua and women's zimmun

> From: Debby Koren <deb@...>

> In the Sefer Or Zarua, Part 1, Hilkhot Seudah, siman 184, he quotes
> the Ri"f, saying that three women form a zimmun.  However, I'm not
> able to find this in the Ri"f in any of the logical places.  Can you
> point me to where this is in the Ri"f, or did Or Zarua have a
> different version of the Ri"f than we have?  Also, after quoting the
> Ri"f (ending with ad kan l'shono), the Or Zarua states "rotzeh lomar
> ...".  Does he mean that he (the Or Zarua) wants to say, or is he
> clarifying what the Ri"f says?

Probaly should be R. Chananel - see footnotes to Tosfos Rabeinu Yehuda
(reprinted Yerushalayim 5758) Brochos 45b #39 who references to Otzar
Hagaonim p. 56 (I don't have the OG).
Chaim G. Steinmetz


From: David and Toby Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:12:29 +0200
Subject: seven species/ seven holidays

An idea came to me on chag which I'd like to share with the readers. I
have a gut feeling that I'm not the first person to come up with
something like this, so I would be very interested to hear if there are
similar ideas in earlier sources.

I've noticed a certain connection between each of the seven species of
Eretz Yisrael and seven of the major holidays. Some are more obvious,
others less so.

Rosh Hashanah - Pomegranate, as the custom to eat pomegranates on Rosh
Yom Kippur - Fig, since Adam and Chava used fig leaves to cover the
nakedness exposed by their first sin
Sukkot -- Date, the lulav is from the date tree
Chanukah -- Olive, the olive oil used to light the menorah
Purim -- Grape, wine plays a major role in both the Megillah and the customs
of Purim
Pesach - Barley, the omer sacrifice brought first on Pesach is barley,
"aviv" in Hebrew, and Pesach is in the month of Aviv
Shavuot - Wheat, the two loaves offering brought on Shavuot is from wheat

Has anyone heard something similar to this?


David Curwin
Efrat, Israel
email: <tobyndave@...>
phone: 02 930 9402


From: Saul Davis <sdavis@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:39:03 +0200
Subject: Source for Hillel and moshiah

Eli Turkel wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 35 #54 Digest:
" ... As others have pointed out Hillel in the gemara did not believe that a
physical Moshiach is coming".

1. Who are the "others"?
2. Where is that in the Gemora?

Saul Davis


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:39:36 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Travel on Hag

  From what I saw in the newspapers here, the flight was delayed & arrived
close to Rosh HaShana. The religous passengers were taken care of first -
and then sent to nearby Kiryat Sefer or some other place that Yated Neeman
could not mention (Kefar Habad?) to spend R"R with hosting familys that
were notified at the last minute....

This brings up some questions -
 - should one leave to travel when there is a chance that he will arrive
close to or after Shabbat or Hag begins?
 - can one leave the other non-religous passengers in the airport knowing
that they will violate Shabbat will he saves himself by asking or
demanding to leave first. I assume that in B.G. airport one could spend
R"R with cold food, sleeping on a bench, etc.....


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:03:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Verses in Rosh Hashana Musaf

>From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
>Some argue that originally ketuvin were considered more holy that neviim
>within Tanach. It was Rambam who introduced the idea that the prophets
>are more holy. In fact the order of the verses in the Rosh hashana
>prayers of ketuvim before prophets is a proof against rambam (of course
>various answers are given).

        The best answer lefi aniyat daati for the verses from "ketuvim"
to precede those of the niviim in the RH musaf is that the verses from
"ketuvim" are all from Tehillim, whost traditional author was David who
precedes the major prophets chronologically.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
Ph. 773-880-4187, Fax 773-880-8226


From: Meira Welt <meirawelt@...>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:57:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Wyschogrod

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in his book (hebrew - magnes) "Judaism in a
postmodern age" has a whole chapter about Wyschogrod's philosophy
especially relating to the shoah and his relationship with various
thinkers. I hope that will help. meira 


End of Volume 35 Issue 57