Volume 35 Number 74
                 Produced: Tue Dec 25  8:48:22 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

12th Month of Avelut
         [Meir Shinnar]
An Actuarial Approach
         [Carl Singer]
Grape Juice (4)
         [Janet Rosenbaum, Joel Rich, Elazar M Teitz, Wendy Baker]
Hosting marriageable boy/girlfriends
         [Carl Singer]
Peanut oil on Psach
         [Frank Silbermann]
Peanuts on Pesach
Rav Hirsch sometimes disagreed with Rishonim/Acharonim on words
         [Normand, Neil]
Request for stories
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Sacramental Wine
         [Art Werschulz]
Trial of Kosher Butchers
         [Arieh Lebowitz]
         [Eric Stieglitz]
Yabia Omer Index
         [David Yehuda Shabtai]


From: <Chidekel@...> (Meir Shinnar)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:37:00 EST
Subject: Re: 12th Month of Avelut

Zev Sero wrote

<< Kaddish stops a month short of the year, so as not to imply
that the deceased needs the benefit of a full year of kaddish-saying;
for exactly the same reason, one should not imply that the deceased
needs the benefit of a full year of prayer-leading. >>

Slight modification of this.  Kaddish is something that only the yatom
says for the sake of the deceased.  Being a shliach zibbur (leading the
congregation) is something that any adult male can do, and doing it
therefore does not imply anything about the needs of the
deceased. Therefore, the ruling (at least here, and elsewhere) is that
the level of obligation in the 12th month is less than that during the
first 11 months, so a mourner during his 11 months, when he is saying
kaddish, takes precedence over the mourner in the 12th month.  However,
if no such mourner exists, a mourner in the 12th month takes precedence
over someone without any obligation.

Meir Shinnar


From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:59:26 EST
Subject: An Actuarial Approach

I guess when I was a graduate student 25+ years ago $12,000 would have
seemed like a fortune.

But -- not to loose the context of the overall discussion -- with one
child still in day school, I'm spending more than $12K just for his
schooling (tuition, transportation + donations.)  Rent in my
neighborhood for a 2 bedroom apartment is, likewise, greater than $12K
per year.  And I haven't even begun to mention community obligations
such as tzedukah.

There may be families that live happily and well on $12,000 per year and
probably some who find themselves unhappily struggling at $120,000 per
year.  Perhaps money isn't that important.

Kol Tov

Carl Singer


From: Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 21:37:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Grape Juice

To continue the grape juice questions:
I have heard that a large market share for companies like Magen David 
and Manishewitz is the Catholic Church, for communion wine.  

Since cooking wine apparently doesn't deter gentiles from turning wine
into their god's blood anymore, why do we still say that once wine has
been cooked, it doesn't need further supervision?  Presumably a Catholic
priest's bottle of Maneshewitz isn't kosher because he may have blessed

(On a separate note, I heard that Manishewitz sells extremely well in
the American Bible Belt, though probably not for religious purposes.)


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:11:28 EST
Subject: Grape Juice

<< Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 272:2 states that one may use grape juice; who
 disagrees with this?

 Barak Greenfield  >>

FWIW it's very likely that the grape juice referred to in shulchan aruch
differs from ours.  IIRC the grape juice in the time of S"A was simply a
mixture which would turn into wine eventually if left alone.  Our grape
juice will never ferment(or so I'm told).  Thus there could be halachik
differences between the 2.

Joel Rich

From: Elazar M Teitz <remt@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:01:19 +0000
Subject: re: Grape Juice

Barak Greenfield writes that "Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 272:2 states
that one may use grape juice; who disagrees with this?"

What the Shulchan Aruch states is that one may squeeze a bunch of grapes
and make Kiddush. Those who would disqualify grape juice refer to the
pasteurized product. The difference is that the former is potential
wine, since left to ferment it will become wine, and is thus in its
current state considered to be unfinished wine.  The latter, on the
other hand, can no longer become wine.

Elazar M. Teitz

From: Wendy Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:42:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Grape Juice

As far as I know, grape juice is not taxed here in the US, as it is
regarded as a food.  Wine, as an alcoholic product is fairly heavily

Wendy Baker


From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 19:24:41 EST
Subject: Re: Hosting marriageable boy/girlfriends

>  From: The Benjamins <benjams@...>
>  I'm curious regarding guidlines you may have heard/experienced regarding
>  limitations regarding hosting a marriageable aged child's (opposite sex)
>  boy/girlfriend over night (with the child present).  Would there be a
>  distinction between pre-engaged vs. engaged couple?  This regards the
>  home being occupied by other family members, as well.

I know that friends and neighbors have asked us to house a young adult
in our home lest they sleep in the same home as their boy/girlfriend,
fiance/ee, etc.  Usually, all meals, etc., have been had with the
boy/girlfriend's family -- but NO sleeping together in the same home
prior to marriage.

Kol Tov

Carl Singer


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:27:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject:  Peanut oil on Psach

In Vol35 #68 David Charlap suggested that peanut oil was accepted in the
past because until recently people didn't know peanuts were legumes.
Avi Feldblum replied that people always knew peanuts were legumes, but
did not interpret the ban as applying to derivitives of kitniot.

Even if one refuses derivitives of kitniot, not everyone agrees that all
legumes are kitniot.  If one defines kitniot as as edible seeds that
grow in fields (i.e. not on trees or under ground), then though though
this category would include _most_ legumes, it need not include peanuts.
Perhaps this is the reason Rav. Moshe Feinstein permitted even peanuts
themselves on Passover (to people who did not have a family tradition of
avoiding them).

But there is a growing tendency to accept the strict opinion in cases of
disagreement; how much more so during Passover.

Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana


From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 09:05:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Peanuts

The reason for allowing peanuts is because they were not in use at the
time the takona against kitnious was accepted, and therefore were never
included in the ban.


From: <JoshHoff@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 12:03:27 EST
Subject: Re: Peanuts on Pesach

Around 20 yrs. ago when I was in Remsen Village (East Flatbush) for a
Shabbos at the home of Rabbi Lazar, a shul rabbi there, he told me that
Rav Gustman told him that in Vilna they ate peanuts on Pesach.


From: Normand, Neil <NormandN@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:58:28 -0500
Subject: RE: Rav Hirsch sometimes disagreed with Rishonim/Acharonim on words

  Rav Hirsch may very well understand the herberw word ANAV differently
than the common understanding, and certainly has good reasons for it. My
issue is your understanding of a Gemara that clearly is making a
critical statement about Rav Zecharia's actions, by saying that his
actions led to the destruction of the second temple, and claiming that
in reality the Gemara is praising Rav Zecharia for his actions.  It is
highly implausible that the Gemara could say that a person's actions led
to the destruction of the temple and not be criticizing that
person. And, as the Maharitz Chayot points out, their are circumstances
in which normally unqualified sacrafices can be braught, so your
argument that "It is better to have no temple then a temple with
imperfect offerings" is not substantiated. In addition, as the Malbim
points out in his commentary to Mishlei(perek 1, posuk2), ANAVA is a
middah, a personality trait, which sometimes should be invoked, but
sometimes should be avoided, depending on the particular circumstances.
What the gemara here is saying is that Rav Zecharia's invokation of
ANAVA, in this specific context, was counterproductive, as it ultimately
led to the destruction of the Temple.  Unless Rav Hirsch has writings
where he interprets this gemara in the manner that you have, my critique
is not on Rav Hirsch.  Presumably Rav Hirsch would need to combine his
understanding of the term ANAV as responsive, and the gemara's critique
on Rav Zecharia to come up with an interpretation.


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:29:49 +0200
Subject: Request for stories

Some of you may be aware of two books of mine published by Artscroll: "A
Touch of Wisdom, a Touch of Wit," and "Words of Wisdom, Words of Wit."

I am now in the process of putting together a third volume, and would be
most appreciative if any of you can send me stories you've heard of or
are personally familiar with about Gedolim of the 20th Century (the ones
before that date are generally well-documented).

I'm looking for stories about their personalities or in which they were
personally involved, or aphorisms attributed to them. The stories should
either have a moral lesson or have a witty point to them. Stories which
disparage others would not be appropriate.

Many thanks,

Shmuel Himelstein
P.S. I intend to acknowledge in print those whose  stories I use, if they
are the primary source of a particular story.


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:19:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Sacramental Wine

Hi all.
Hillel E. Markowitz <Sabba.Hillel@...> wrote:
> A number of states have restrictive laws on selling wine and grape
> juice.  To avoid many of the restrictions, wine or grape juice that
> is sold for "sacramental" purposes can be sold through a synagogue
> or Jewish book store.  For instance, in Pennsylvania, wine could
> only be sold in an "ABC Store", but sacramental wine could be sold
> through the synagogue or other authorized place.  I don't know if
> that is still the law or not.

Ah yes ... the PA Alcoholic Beverages Commission ...  At one point,
buying wine in such a store was truly unpleasant.  You ordered from the
State Store list.  You weren't allowed to browse among the bottles.  The
employees were forbidden by law from making recommendations, they
shouldn't be accused of bribe-induced favoritism.  Of course, the
employees were really clerks who (AFAIK) didn't have any special
training or background regarding wine.  I think that their main task was
to keep underage drinkers from buying alcohol.  So, asking a State Store
employee for a wine recommendation would've been like asking a Motor
Vehicles employee for a wine recommendation.

I remember at one point that when we were visiting my wife's aunt in
Pittsburgh each Thanksgiving.  We would need to buy Shabbat wine.  This
could be purchased at the kosher grocery in Squirrel Hill, the major
Jewish area of Pittsburgh.  We needed to sign a form giving our name,
the name of our shul (back home in New Jersey), and certifying that we
were buying it for religious purposes.  I seem to recall that this
wasn't necessary the last year we made the trek (about three years ago),
but my memory could be faulty.

Art Werschulz (8-{)}   "Metaphors be with you."  -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y? 
Internet: <agw@...><a href="http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~agw/">WWW</a>
ATTnet:   Columbia U. (212) 939-7061, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325


From: <ariehnyc@...> (Arieh Lebowitz)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 00:41:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Trial of Kosher Butchers

Regarding the query about the trial of kosher butchers in New York in
the '20s or '30s, it might be interesting to look at information on what
has come to be known as the "Kosher Meat Boycott of 1902."

Two websites dealing with this episode in American Jewish history are:


  which appears to have been "printed" first at:


as does the article by Paula Hyman, "Immigrant Women and Consumer
Protest: The New York City Kosher Meat Boycott of 1902," American Jewish
History vol. 70 no.  1 (September 1980), pp. 91-105 [reprinted in The
American Jewish Experience (ed. Jonathan Sarna).  New York: Holmes &
Meier, 1986, pp.135-46.]

Arieh Lebowitz


From: Eric Stieglitz <ephraim@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:59:10 -0500
Subject: Wages

Russell Hendel mentions a wage of $6.00/hour for various household help
and points out how low a figure that is.  I'd like to add to this
something I overheard while visiting my uncle during the holidays.

A family friend had approached my 15-year-old cousin and asked if she
would babysit on some evening. The friend offered my cousin over
$10.00/hour for her work, but my cousin insisted on only $7.00/hour. My
aunt quickly explained that her daughter charged such low fees for
babysitting because they didn't think it was appropriate for a teenage
girl to be earning more than the adult household help they employed for
similar tasks!

Perhaps somebody might provide some sources for these types of issues?



From: David Yehuda Shabtai <dys6@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:22:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Yabia Omer Index

I wanted to know if anybody was aware of a comprehensive index of Rav
Ovadia Yosef's Yabia Omer. To my knowledge there is a separate index for
each volume so to find a teshuva you must look through all eight
volumes.  If anybody knows of such a work, please let me know.

David Shabtai


End of Volume 35 Issue 74