Volume 35 Number 98
                 Produced: Mon Feb 25  5:35:32 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Baruch Sheptarani on a Bas Mitzva (2)
         [Ed Norin, Yael Levine Katz]
Kaddish Custom
         [Yisrael and Batya Medad]
Lashon Haqodesh (2)
         [Yisrael and Batya Medad, Mark Steiner]
Oat Matzos
         [Lisa Seeman]
Questions about 2d minyanim and subsequent problems in the
         [Aaronson, Jeffrey B.]
Second Day Chag in Israel for visitors?
         [Norm Broner]
Sifrei Kodesh
         [Janet Rosenbaum]
Sifrei Kodesh & Baal Koyre
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Toras Aish
         [Yitz Weiss]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 21:29:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Administrivia

I am very happy to announce to my extended mail-jewish family that my son
Eli is engaged to marry Meryl Kaufman (from Teaneck, NJ). We are all
thrilled and looking forward to their building a bayit ne'eman b'yisrael.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: <EngineerEd@...> (Ed Norin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:09:11 EST
Subject: Baruch Sheptarani on a Bas Mitzva

In mail-jewish Vol. 35 #96, Gershon stated that "I also never heard of
it being said at all for a girl, although I don't see a logical reason
for this."

I said it for all three of my daughters.  It is kind of a right wing
Conservative/left wing Orthodox thing.

Ed Norin 

From: Yael Levine Katz <ylkpk@...>
Subject: Baruch Sheptarani on a Bas Mitzva

A discussion of the recitation of "Baruch she-Petarani" for a girl
reaching Bat-Mitzvah appears in the recently published volume in Hebrew
Bat-Mitzvah, edited by Sarah Friedland Ben-Arza, and published by Matan
and Urim.

Yael Levine Katz


From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:21:32 +0200
Subject: Re: Kaddish Custom

i passed this around and Ely, who has much experience with Ashkenazi
customs (his family hails from Alsace-Lorraine) responded:

> I never heard and never read that one ceases saying Kadish after 50 years.
> Prof. Ely Merzbach
> Dept. of Mathematics
> Bar-Ilan university
> 52900 Ramat-Gan, Israel


From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:45:34 +0200
Subject: Lashon Haqodesh

why should "lashon haqodesh" be a mistake?  "kodesh" is a noun, the
"Holy", like in Har Haqodesh referring to Har HaBayit.  According to my
dictionary, it's source is in Snahedrin 21A: "b'tchila nitna Torah
l'Yisrael bichtav ivri u'l'shon haqodesh" but I presume the grammatical
mistake "la" and not "li" stems from normative everyday people usage.

From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:33:39 +0200
Subject: Re: Lashon Haqodesh

Jay Schachter wrote:

What makes "lashon haqqodesh" wrong is that the smikhut form of "lashon"
is "lshon".  It should be pronounced "lshon haqqodesh".  Similarly with
"lshon hara`" and "`eyn hara`".  When I made these pronouncements, in
passing, in an earlier issue of mail.jewish, my esteemed colleague Mark
Steiner replied with the opinion that since these phrases originated in
Mishnaic Hebrew, and since -- he claimed -- in Mishnaic Hebrew the words
"lashon" and "`ayin" are invariant under smikhut, we should retain the
Mishnaic forms in our spoken conversation.

    This is an excellent account of what I wrote, thank you.  I would
add only that I checked this out with linguists who work in the field.
I also own a copy of the "Kaufmann Codex" of the Mishnah which is an
ancient vocalized ms. which is believed to be a faithful tradition both
of text and pronunciation.  (The scribe who wrote the text, by the way,
was not the person who made the vowel pointings.)  This ms. does not
attest leshon or ayn as smikhut forms.  I vocalizes "yayin nesekh", not
as in Biblical "yayn nesekh," in Tractate Avoda Zara, etc.

    Finally, as to Yiddish.  It is believed by linguists that the
Hebrew/Aramaic component of Yiddish also preserves ancient forms of
Mishnaic Hebrew.  Some of the Hebrew expressions in use in Israel today
are attested only in Yiddish.

No more time before shabbat,


From: Lisa Seeman <seeman@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:23:56 -0800
Subject: Oat Matzos

Hi all,
I [looked] up info about  oat matzot at oatmatzah.com

It is for people who want matzo but have a wheat allergy or are celiac
[..]  on a gluten free, wheat free diet. The gluten analysis is also
available on the site.

All the best,

Lisa Seeman

[Availability of Oat Matzah is a yearly topic for this list, so if you
have information or pointers to where to get wheat free matzot, please
send them in, I'll collect and send out in a mailing in the next week or
two (so enough time before Pesach to get). Mod.]


From: Aaronson, Jeffrey B. <JAaronson@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:59:27 -0600
Subject: Questions about 2d minyanim and subsequent problems in the

I am looking for information -preferably detailed information -
concerning experiences with 2d minyanim. I use the phrase 2d not
"h'aschgama" because under the proposal the 2d minyan would start only
1/2/ hour before the minyan in the main sanctuary.

By way of Background the congregation is modern Orthodox with a fair
number of BTs and some FFBs. We are located in a city near the downtown.
We have many young singles and marrieds.  We also have some families
with kids and some empty nesters.  Many are professionals.  There are no
other orthodox shuls with walking distance.

There are 2 primary reasons that the supporters of the 2d minyan have
given for their plan.  A number of the FFBs (mostly in their 20s or
early 30s) feel that the Rabbi has turned the minyan into a beginners
minyan (too many page announcements and they do not like the fact that
the Rabbi provides a very short -less than a minute- "dvar Torah" before
each aliyah and even shorter introductions before some of the teffilot)
They think that his devrei Torah are aimed at too low a level (the Rabbi
is willing to vary his "aim" to provide some divrei Torah that are aimed
at a "higher" level). They claim that the Rabbi's comments break the
flow and their ability to get the rhythm to daven with Kavana and that
when they daven they want to daven and not have davening interrupted
with learning.  In short, they do not like the way the Rabbi is doing
things.  Others support the proposal because they want to have a more
intimate, exclusively lay led service.  This is not being done to
provide relief to families with small children and none of the families
with small children support the proposal.  In the course of discussing
this issue, there have been conflicting claims regarding whether other
shuls with multiple minyanim have had problems or been happy with the
arrangement.  I am particularly interested in knowing why the 2d minyan
was started and whether the Rabbi took any steps to maintain a level of
control and involvement in the 2d minyan.  Feel free to respond
directly.  I have lees than a 2 week window to obtain this information.


From: Norm Broner <broner@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 21:03:44 +1100
Subject: Second Day Chag in Israel for visitors?

I am interested in issue of keeping the second day, as per Chutz
La'aretz, when visiting Israel over a Chag.

I have been told that the Yavetz (Rav Yaakov Emden ztl) paskened that it
is the "makom" that one goes after and therefore when visiting, one
keeps one day only as permanent residents.  Other Poskim apparently say
that one keeps one day as long as the wife (and family?) is also
present.  The Alter Rebbe ztl paskens that one keeps one day but should
preferably not do "Melocho De Aroyso" on the second day and not eat
Chometz on the day after Pesach (8th day) if one can avoid it.

Can anyone shed any further light on this "controversial" issue?

Menachem Broner
tel:  + 613 9525 9043
fax: + 613 9525 9227
Email: <broner@...>


From: Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:31:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Sifrei Kodesh

Hi.  I wanted to clarify that the reason for my question was because I
remember seeing a discussion either h-judaic or here (and hence searched
the mail-jewish.org web archives) on the origin of ``sifrei kodesh.''

I know that this is perfectly valid smichut, but my question is in its
usage --- was it always smichut like this, or was it originally in the
form n + adj?  The ``large array of sources'' I referred to in my
original post was in uses of the phrase historically, and my
recollection was that it included uses which indicate that it was n+adj
(e.g., ``sifrei kdoshim'' or ``hasifrei hakdoshim''.)

> This is also based on a misconception. A tallis koton is worn by men
> of all ages, even centenarians. It is not a young person's talis.

Not literally, but it is a garment which would cover most of the body of
a young person (a 9 year old boy).

Those who have referred me to a past discussion on mail-jewish, please
at least tell me the approximate year or how the participants spell
certain words, as the entire problem is that I already searched the
archives and either didn't find anything, or found too much (since
``sifrei kodesh'' and its variants come up all the time.)



From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:17:43 +0200
Subject: Re: Sifrei Kodesh & Baal Koyre

Perets Mett <p.mett@...> wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 35 #96 

> >When I mentioned this on soc.culture.jewish someone mentioned "baal
> >koreh" as a mistake > (instead of "baal kriah"),

>This is a common misconception. Indeed if anything is a mistake it is
>"baal kriah", a meaningless concept. The word for a Reader in Hebrw is
>is 'korei'; that is the word used in Shulchon Orukh. The word (or
>phrase) 'baal koyre' is the correct term in Yiddish (not Hebrew).
>'baal kriah' was made up by people who deride the use of Yiddish and
>failed to realize what the correct Hebrew word is.

The use is rather widespread, even if not to be found in the sources.
I'm not convinced that the usage of ba`al qeri'a is inherently wrong.
In the same style, we hear ba`al toqe`a and ba`al mehaber all the time,
and even see them in print.  Nonetheless, this usage *is* clearly
incorrect, and the correct words should be toqe`a and mehaber.

> >but lashon hakodesh seems to be "language of the holy"
>Actually, the correct Hebrew phrase is "l'shon hakodesh" (the first
>word uses the s'michuth form). In Yiddish it loshn-koydesh without ha-
>(though it could well be a mistake instead of halashon hakodesh).  This
>would be grammatically inadmissible. If anything, it would have use the
>adjectival form "haloshoin hakodoish", but this is idiomatically

It is also incorrect.  If anything, it would be halashon haqedosha.

But more to the point, similar to what is stated in Prof. Reuven Sivan's
"Lexicon Leshippur Halashon," the expression lashon harais *not*
semikhut, but rather a noun followed by an adjective.  It does not
follow the normal rule of adding the heh hayedi`a, but neither does yom
hashishi, luhot harishonim or kenesset hagedola.

> >Someone else pointed out tallis katan (instead of tallit ketana) 

>The grammatical point has been discussed previously on the list. It
>seems that talis was considered to be a masculine noun in Hebrew by
>some authors. (it is definitely a masculine noun in Yiddish)

It is so ingrained in Hebrew that even Harav Ovadya Yosef, who is not
very much influenced by Yiddish, refers to tallit qatan.



From: <YitzW@...> (Yitz Weiss)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:36:28 EST
Subject: Toras Aish

The Purim issue of Toras Aish is now available! Toras Aish is a weekly
parsha newsletter suitable for downloading & distributing in shuls,
schools, etc. It's available in Word, Adobe Acrobat (pdf), text (no
formatting) or postscript. Feel free to d/l a copy at http://aishdas.org

Chag Purim Samayach!

Yitz Weiss


End of Volume 35 Issue 98