Volume 36 Number 85
                 Produced: Sun Jul 28 16:14:56 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Carrying a Passport
         [Alan Friedenberg]
Carrying ID on Shabbos
         [Carl Singer]
English translation of Ramban's Iggeres HaKodesh
         [Yehuda Goldsmith]
God editing Citations in the Torah
         [Russell Jay Hendel]
Jews like stars - interpretation of the Netzi"v
Neheneh Memelechas Akum
         [Zev Sero]
Preparation For After Shabbos.
         [Immanuel Burton]
A trop question
         [Mark Symons]
Two bachelors in the same room (2)
         [Jeanette Friedman Sieradski, Michael J. Savitz]


From: Alan Friedenberg <elshpen@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 04:37:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Carrying a Passport

Before I lived within an eruv, I always had to carry my apartment key on
Shabbos on a belt that was specially made so the key was an essential
part of the belt.  I don't understand how one can carry anything around
the neck on a necklace type holder, unless the passport holder was part
of the necklace.


From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 06:43:57 EDT
Subject: Re: Carrying ID on Shabbos

      From: Stieglitz, Eric J. (DCSA) <EStieglitz@...>

      What type of holder allows one to halachically "wear" your ID on
      Shabbat.  I have a type of wallet for my passport that is worn
      around the neck as you describe above, but I never imagined that
      it was permissible to use this on Shabbat.

      If these types of items are in fact permissible on Shabbat, what
      is one allowed to place in them besides an ID? (i.e. keys, etc.)

That's specifically why I introduced this as a non-halachic response.
Your LOR needs the aggravation, not I.  Also, the identity theft concern
is simply cautionary.


From: <Yman866@...> (Yehuda Goldsmith)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:40:11 EDT
Subject: Re: English translation of Ramban's Iggeres HaKodesh

Avroham (<benrothke@...>) wrote:  
\Does anyone know if there is an English translation of Ramban's Iggeres

I'm not sure if you are referring to the famous Iggeres HaRamban that
the Ramban sent to his son, also known as Iggeres HaMussar. If you are,
there is a beautiful small sefer entitled "A letter for the Ages" by Rav
Avrohom Chaim Feuer published by Artscroll that explains the letter
phrase by phrase.

Yehuda Goldsmith


From: Russell Jay Hendel
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 03:04:43 -0400
Subject: RE: God editing Citations in the Torah

There have been several postings in EXTRA WORD IN TORAH thread about how
we should treat quotes. (eg Akiva Miller in v36n64 who states we dont
have the original quote but Gods edited version)

My favorite example is the request by Balak to Bilam to curse the Jewish
people.  This request is repeated twice:Nu22-05:06 and Nu22-11). There
are about 10 discrepancies in the repeated request--many of these
discrepancies are discussed by Rashi and used to indicate personality
differences between Balak and Bilam.

Here is 1 simple example: Balak a leader requested a goal of >remove
(the Jews) them FROM THE LAND< while Bilam (An anti- semite) requested
>remove them< with the added phrase FROM THE LAND absent in the
request. Rashi wryly notes that Bilam wanted them REMOVED PERIOD while
Balak just didnt want them nearby. (The URL below contains an analysis
of all 10 differenc es and many Rashis on the subject).

Of course the answer to the above is that Bilam edited Balaks original
request...but I would simply suggest that such editing of citations is
normal (It is also done by modern newspapers)

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.com/nu22-05d.htm


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 02:26:01 EDT
Subject: Jews like stars - interpretation of the Netzi"v

<<From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
 From the parsha this Shabbos, Aryeh Kaplan's translation:
"God your Lord has increased your numbers until you are [now] as many as
the stars of the sky.  May God, Lord of your fathers, increase your
numbers a thousand fold, and bless you as He promised." >>

Interesting post....

However, some might still have trouble accepting that it means only the
relatively small amount of stars visible under the above conditions
rather than the much larger amount of stars in existence, in general,
according the that interpretation of the posuk....

I would like to call to the attention of the M-J community a relevant
interpretation from the holy Netzi"v (Rabbi Naftoli Tzvi Yehudoh Berlin
z"l) of Volozhin. In his commentary on the verse cited above (Ha'amek
Dovor to Devorim 1:10) he states that the comparison to stars is to be
understood as a qualitative comparison - with star meaning an
outstanding entity which gives off and radiates light - (similar to how
the word star is used today to described a superlative performer -
e.g. lihavdil ( ! ) Michael Jordan being a basketball star, Rudolph
Giuliani a political star, etc.) as opposed to the common understanding
of it as a quantitative one. See his commentary there for more

May we be zoche to a time when every Jew will be a great star and
illuminate the world !



From: Zev Sero <zev.sero@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:33:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Neheneh Memelechas Akum

 .cp. <chips@...> wrote:

> hmm, i thought this only applied when the only way a goy could
> accomplish something he was contracted to do was on Shabos. example:
> telling a woker on Friday evening something has to be done by saturday
> night.

Yes.  If you give the goy enough time that he *could* do it before or
after Shabbat, so that the reason he's doing it on shabbat is for his
own convenience, not yours, then you have not done anything wrong.  You
are not allowed to ask him to work on shabbat, and you haven't, since
your request could have been fulfilled without any chilul shabbat; he is
100% allowed to work on shabbat for his own benefit, not yours, so if he
chooses not to stay up all Saturday night and instead to do the work on
Shabbat, that's his business.

For exactly the same reason, you can ask a goy to do something on
shabbat, if he *could* do it without doing any `chilul shabbat' (i.e.
what would have been chilul shabbat had a Jew done it), and then he is
entitled to choose to do it with `chilul shabbat' for his own
convenience.  E.g. you can ask him to carry something up to the 28th
floor, and if he chooses to use the lift instead of climbing the stairs
that's his right; you can ask him to wash the dishes, and if he chooses
to use the dishwasher instead of doing it by hand, that's his business.

But you must *not* ask him, whether directly, indirectly, or by any sort
of hint, to do something for your benefit that cannot be done without
`chilul shabbat', and if you see him doing it YOU MUST ASK HIM TO STOP,
and if he's your employee and defies your order to stop YOU MUST FIRE
HIM.  That is plain halacha.  (OC 256, I think).

> Otherwise, going to a goy in a street and telling him that the TV
> volume is on high but you can't turn it off becuase it is a holy day
> would be forbidden to do.

And who says it's permitted?

> In addition, many of the shtetl's in old Europe would have been
> michalel Shabos since they had Shabos Goy to stoke the coals, etc.

This is the root of the whole problem.  The `shabbos goy' that people's
grandparents remembered from the old days in Northern Europe.  What you
have to understand is that the only reason this was allowed was a
medical dispensation.  A person who is seriously ill (i.e. he is too
sick to get out of bed), but not so sick that his life is in danger, has
no heter to break shabbat, but is exempted from the Rabbinic prohibition
against having a goy do work for him.  When Jews came to the cold
climates of Northern Europe, and realised that on cold winter days, if
the fire is not relit in the morning, they would quickly become ill,
this heter was extended so that it's not necessary to wait until one
becomes ill, and then have the goy light the fire - instead one can have
him light the fire first, and not become ill in the first place.  In
other words, the fire is a preventive medicine, and is thus included in
the heter.  IT WAS NEVER PERMITTED to have the goy do anything that was
not necessary to prevent serious illness, not even to light the fire on
days when it wasn't so cold that there was a danger of someone becoming
seriously ill.

There are other heterim for using goyim to do otherwise prohibited acts
on shabbat.  It is allowed to have a goy do a *Rabbinic* prohibition, if
it is absolutely necessary for the fulfilment of some mitzvah, i.e.  it
will be impossible (not just difficult) to do the mitzvah without it.
E.g. if all the lights have gone out on Friday night, it is impossible
to enjoy shabbat (a mitzvah) in the dark, so a goy may be asked to carry
a candle from another apartment in the same building, where there is no
eruv chatzerot; if, however, there is one light left, however dim, so
that oneg shabbat is not completely gone, this heter does not apply.

Also, there is a heter, I'm not sure how broad, to have a goy do
Rabbinic prohibitions for the needs of the community, rather than for
one individual; this is the basis for having a shabbos goy do all sorts
of things at a shul - but not Torah prohibitions.

> Not even old Europe, I recall someone from Philadelphia who grew up
> there in '20s telling about the Shabos Goy and the things done via him.

The problem was that when people came to America, they were ignorant,
and didn't know that the basis of the heter their parents used was
medical; instead they thought it was fine to have a shabbos goy do
anything for them.  Those who knew a little, thought that perhaps it
wasn't OK to tell a goy outright, but it was OK to `hint'.  All such
practices, though, are based on pure amharatzut.

Zev Sero


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:45:35 +0100
Subject: Preparation For After Shabbos.

A quick look in Shemiras Shabbos K'Hilchoso on the subject of preparing
for after Shabbos came up with the following:

28:77a states that one may make beds on Shabbos in order to make one's
house look tidy.  By the same token, one should be allowed to hang one's
coat up on Shabbos.

28:79a states that dishes may be cleared from the table even after the
last meal on Shabbos or Yom Tov in order that the room should look clean
and tidy or to avoid attracting insects.

28:79b states that the dishes may even be stacked in an orderly manner
in one's kitchen, provided, of course, that one does not sort them.

28:79c states that one may not, however, clear the dishes from the table
in the last few minutes of Shabbos or Yom Tov, during which one no
longer needs the room to be clean and tidy, or even in the middle of the
day if one will not be using that room again until after Shabbos or Yom

28:81a states that any act which is permissible on Shabbos or Yom Tov
which (a) is done without the involvement of any special bother, and,
(b) one is so used to doing without thinking about the benefit that will
result from its being done may be done on Shabbos or Yom Tov even if one
will derive a benefit afterwards, as long as one does not expressly say
that one will be deriving a benefit afterwards.  Examples given include
returning a book to its place, putting food back in the fridge, and
taking a key with one when one goes out.

I once heard an ingenious explanation of why one is allowed to carry a
key (on Yom Tov, or on Shabbos with an eruv) if one leaves one's house
shortly before the end of Shabbos or Yom Tov, and that is that since one
would not go out of one's house without a key, taking the key with one
is actually part of going out, and not preparation for returning.

Immanuel Burton.

To: <mail-jewish@...>

From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Subject: A trop question

Re what Alfred Silberman wrote:
>In my circles (Chassidish Hungarian but I know it's more widespread than
>that) the occurrence of a Munax followed by a Mahpakh or a Merekha
>occassions a special way of singing the Munax which seems to convert it
>from a Meshares (conjunctive accent) to a low level Mafsiq (sort of like
>a Pazer or Telisha Gedolah)...

I have also learnt to sing this Munach like this, ie a mafsik, which has
therefore always seemed wrong. However, an excellent Israeli Baal Koreh
(Oren Shashar, from whom I learned alot about leining) who was in
Melbourne for a few years lained it in a similar way, but with a slight
variation that effectively converted it into a Meshares. The usual
Mafsik way that I do is (picking a key at random) E-D-E-G-E-D
(la-down-la-up-la-down [where la is the starting position]).  What he
did was just eliminate the final D or down. If you do this, you find
that it leads naturally on to the Mahpakh.

Mark Symons
Melbourne, Australia


From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman Sieradski)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:57:10 EDT
Subject: Re: Two bachelors in the same room

      Shmuel Himelstein wrote: << For all those who question the
      propriety of having two bachelors sleep in the same room, I have
      but one question: what do you think the sleeping arrangements are
      in most Yeshivah dormitories (except those which have three or
      more males in the same room)?  >>

      Interestingly, many (if not most) Israeli yeshivot have a policy
      of three or more bachurim per room, for this very reason (in
      addition to the economic considerations).

      Shlomo Godick

Interestingly, there is a growing movement among mothers in Israel to
keep their sons sleeping at home while attending yeshivot in Israel for
that very reason.

Jeanette Friedman Sieradski

From: Michael J. Savitz <michaelj@...>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:09:31 -0400
Subject: Two bachelors in the same room

And what if all but 2 of the room's residents are away on any given


End of Volume 36 Issue 85