Volume 37 Number 10
                 Produced: Wed Sep 18  6:30:19 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Asking a non-Jew to ask another non-Jew
         [Zev Sero]
Cause of assimilation?
         [David and Toby Curwin]
haftaro reading for Vayishlach
         [Bernard J. Sussman]
Mi Shebeirach for ones wife during pregnancy
         [Meir Possenheimer]
Munah and Le-garmeih
         [Hannah and Daniel Katsman]
Perpetual Hebrew Calendar (8)
         [Mishpachat Freedenberg, Shayna Kravetz, .cp., Jonathan B.
Horen, Joshua Hosseinof, Mordechai, Chaim Tatel, Art Werschulz]
"seating for men only"
         [Leah S. Gordon]
shomer Shabbos scouting
         [Joshua Hosseinof]
Women and tefilin
         [Emmanuel Ifrah]


From: Zev Sero <zev.sero@...>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:18:29 -0400 
Subject: Re: Asking a non-Jew to ask another non-Jew

Daniel M Wells <wells@...>
> http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyomi2/shabbos/insites/sh-dt-122.htm
> Even if a goy does a melacha for himself and knows that you would be
> happy to benefit from his labor, that is enough to make it forbidden.

You keep repeating this, but it is absolutely wrong.  And what's more,
the reference you cite says so.  For instance:
    [...] the Jew may only use the water or ramp only *after* the
    gentile has used it, because it must be clear that the gentile
    drew the water or built the ramp for himself and not for the Jew.
    b) In the case where most of the people are Jewish [...] it is
    only permissible to benefit from the Melachah performed by a
    gentile when it is clear that the gentile performed the Melachah
    for his own use.

The root of your misunderstanding seems to be that you imagine that
there are two separate prohibitions: telling a goy, and benefiting from
what a goy has done.  In fact, I think you actually said this once in so
many words.  But this is not true.  There is no separate prohibition at
all on benefiting from a goy's work; rather, it's all part of the
prohibition on telling a goy.  If a goyishe friend makes coffee for
himself, we may not drink what's left in the pot because next time he
might make extra for us; and if he does make extra for us, we may not
drink it because the time after that we might tell him to make extra.
(Insert standard disclaimer about it not being a fence for a fence but
rather all one fence.)

But where there is no worry that next time he'll make extra, and what he
did was for himself, *IT DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL* that he had you in mind
as well.  If your Rabbi has said otherwise, then your Rabbi is wrong
(`ta'ah bidvar mishna').  It really is as simple as that.

Zev Sero


From: David and Toby Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 00:04:09 +0300
Subject: Cause of assimilation?

It is not uncommon to in the Orthodox world to hear that the cause of
our troubles, be it from the Holocaust to more recent difficulties is a
sort of divine "punishment" for the assimilation and antireligiousness
of Jews from the time of the Emancipation. I'm not interested in whether
or not this a correct or possible conclusion. What I am interested in is
knowing whether the rabbis at that time, or later, gave a similar
explanation as to why the "punishment" of assimilation came upon them?
Assumedly, previous to that time, the Jews were generally
observant. What were the Jews of the pre-emancipation period guilty of
that brought such a terrible punishment?

David Curwin
Efrat, Israel

To: <mail-jewish@...>

From: Bernard J. Sussman <sussmanbern@...>
Subject: haftaro reading for Vayishlach

   I would be very appreciative if knowledgeable persons would address
the question of the historic and proper haftaro reading for the parsha
Vayishlach.  Apparently most of the world (Sefard, Italic, Yemenite,
etc) reads the entire book of Obadiah for the haftaro but some Ashkenaz
read a selection of Hoshea and some even add a very verses from other
prophets.  I would appreciate knowing the history and authority for the
different traditions on this.

   I might add that your (Mail-Jewish) search engine is defective on this 
point.  It did not find anything for the entry "Vayishlach", notwithstanding 
that I had found that exact spelling in the Mail-Jewish, vol. 22, nr. 35 
(Dec 11, 1995).

   Sincerely,  Bernard J. Sussman


From: Meir Possenheimer <meir@...>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:59:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Mi Shebeirach for ones wife during pregnancy

>Is it appropriate to make a Mi Shebeirach for ones wife during pregnancy ?
>Are there other prayers/tehillim that are appropriate ?

There is a Tefillah to be said by the husband from the 7th month of
pregnancy onwards which can be found in the Sidur Avodas Yisroel,
otherwise known as the Baer Siddur, at the end of Shacharis (page 162).


From: Hannah and Daniel Katsman <hannahpt@...>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:37:57 +0200
Subject: Re: Munah and Le-garmeih

Mark Symons wrote:
>You can tell that it's not a munach because of the vertical line that
>follows it (that looks like a p'sik). Sometimes you have only this
>l'garmei followed by the revi'i (without the usual munach), eg umikneh
>rav (in Matot) sh'neyhem m'leyim (in the Nesi'im in Naso - Chanukah),
>which I understand should be leined as a l'garmei, though most people
>I've heard don't.

I've often wondered about this.  How do you know it's a "le-garmeih" and not
a regular "munah" followed by a "pesik"?

Daniel Katsman
Petah Tikva


From: Mishpachat Freedenberg <free@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:50:14 +0200
Subject: Re: Perpetual Hebrew Calendar

The last day of chanukah in 1755 was December 6. You can use kaluach at
http://kaluach.net to figure any day in any year that you wish. 


From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 01:31:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Perpetual Hebrew Calendar

Yael Levine Katz asks for
>a perpetual Hebrew calendar that will be able to calculate
the dates for Hannukah tav-kuf-tet-zayin - I would like to know whether
the first day was still in 1755 or already in 1756.

I cannot provide particulars of a calendar program that can handle those
particular years but I can almost certainly assert that it would be
impossible for the first day of Chanukah (25 Kislev) to fall in January
of the civil calendar. To borrow a physical term, the amplitude of
Chanukah's calendrical swing is never broad enough to have it start in

The rabbinical arrangement of the intercalated month of Adar II to
maintain the placement of Pesach in tequfat Aviv (the spring season)
means that Chanukah oscillates over a period of approximately 4 weeks (1
lunar month) in November and December. December 1 can coincide with a
date as early as 29 Cheshvan (as in civil year 2005), with Chanukah
beginning December 26 and overlapping into the next civil year. December
1 can also coincide with a date as late as 28 Kislev (as in civil year
2013) with Chanukah having begun November 28. So, while the later days
of Chanukah may rarely overlap with the next civil year, the first day
of Chanukah must always fall in November or December.

The dates provided here were obtained from a compact, useful Mac program
called Jewish Calendar V2.0, created by Frank Yellin of Redwood City,
Calif., using algorithms by N. Dershowitz and E.M. Reingold and
available as freeware. I no longer have the website but I expect it can
be googled up without difficulty or, if you can't find it, contact me
offlist and I'll e-mail you the program.

K'tivah v'khatimah tovah


From: .cp. <chips@...>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:23:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Perpetual Hebrew Calendar

}Yael Levine Katz <ylkpk@...> asks...
}> I am seeking a perpetual Hebrew calendar that will be able to calculate
}> the dates for Hannukah tav-kuf-tet-zayin - I would like to know whether
}> the first day was still in 1755 or already in 1756.

Zmanim Hebrew Calander version 7.5c gives same result. A Shabos.
Don't know if Zmanim is using straight Gregorian to get there.


To: <mail-jewish@...>
From: Jonathan B. Horen <horen@...>
Subject: Re: Perpetual Hebrew Calendar

Take a look at Kaluach (www.kaluach.org)

It's a mature, yet evolving, program, written by my long-time friend, 
Yisroel Hersch.  I don't leave home without it. ;-)

E: <horen@...>            Inter-University Computation Center
T: +972-(0)3-640-5203                               Tel-Aviv University
F: +972-(0)3-640-9118                           Ramat-Aviv 69978 Israel

From: Joshua Hosseinof <jh@...>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 23:36:16 -0400
Subject: re: Perpetual Hebrew Calendar

According to the Bar Ilan Responsa v8, Jan 1st 1756 was the 28th of
Tevet, 5516, hence it would be the 4th day of Chanukah.  My only doubt
as to the accuracy of this is that the Calendar specifically says
"Gregorian to Hebrew Calendar conversion" and I am wondering if 1756 was
still the Julian calendar and therefore might be off by about 11 days.

From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 03:04:05 EDT
Subject: Perpetual Hebrew Calendar

Take a look at http://www.jewishgen.org/jos/josdates.htm and 


From: Chaim Tatel <chaimyt@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:33:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Perpetual Hebrew Calendar

I just checked Kaluach. It has December 29, 1755 for first day (28th for first


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:53:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Perpetual Hebrew Calendar


Using Amos Shapir's hcal program:

  smolyak:agw% hcal 11 1755
  November 1755 / Heshvan - Kislev 5516
   Sun   Mon   Tue   Wed   Thu   Fri   Sat
   2/28  3/29  4/30  5/ 1  6/ 2  7/ 3  8/ 4
   9/ 5 10/ 6 11/ 7 12/ 8 13/ 9 14/10 15/11
  16/12 17/13 18/14 19/15 20/16 21/17 22/18
  23/19 24/20 25/21 26/22 27/23 28/24 29+25

  smolyak:agw% hcal 12 1756
  December 1756 / Kislev - Tevet 5517
   Sun   Mon   Tue   Wed   Thu   Fri   Sat
                     1/ 8  2/ 9  3/10  4/11
   5/12  6/13  7/14  8/15  9/16 10/17 11/18
  12/19 13/20 14/21 15/22 16/23 17/24 18+25
  19+26 20+27 21+28 22+29 23+30 24+ 1 25+ 2
  26/ 3 27/ 4 28/ 5 29/ 6 30/ 7 31/ 8 

So ...
  the first day of Chanukah 5516 was Shabbat 29 November 1755,
  the first day of Chanukah 5517 was Shabbat 18 November 1756.

Art Werschulz (8-{)}   "Metaphors be with you."  -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y? 
Internet: <agw@...><a href="http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~agw/">WWW</a>
ATTnet:   Columbia U. (212) 939-7061, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:27:05 -0700
Subject: "seating for men only"

I would like to thank Shmuel Himelstein for his words about the
restaurant that allows only men to sit.

Personally, I don't have an objection to eating a bagel with my husband
and sons in public, but even leaving that aside--why not have separate
seating or separate days or even "seating for women only"?

I actually suspect that it isn't *quite* as insidious as "seating for
whites only".  The sign's author probably thinks that he is avoiding
having a 'spectacle' of women hanging around the shop.  And I suppose he
has convinced himself that a frum woman eating a bagel would be too sexy
for the frum men to be able to keep their minds on the business at hand.
This is pretty silly from my perspective, but maybe not as rude as it is

(Although, I suppose someone might answer, to the comment, "I can see a
woman eat a bagel without being aroused," "Oh?  Famous last words."  ;)

--Leah Gordon


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:14:08 EDT
Subject: shomer Shabbos scouting

There is a shomer Shabbos scouting group that meets in Brooklyn, NY, at
Congregation Ahavas Achim (1741 East 3rd street I believe). I think NYC
Judge Charles Posner and Assistant DA Michael Paritsky (Paretsky?) of
the Brooklyn DA's office are involved or would know about it. There have
been pieces on it in 'The Jewish Press' newspaper (published in
Brooklyn, NY).



From: Joshua Hosseinof <jh@...>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 23:38:28 -0400
Subject: Tikkun

I can second Alan's endorsement of the Tikkun Ish Matzliach.  The
footnotes are actually quite informative, especially the ones about when
to add an ever so slight pause between words so that a certain bad
meaning of the words is avoided.  As well as when specifically to note
that a word should be Mil'el or Mil'ra when you might think otherwise.
It also lists for certain parshiyot alternate divisions of the parshiyot
where Sefardim (specifically the Tunisians) differ from Ashkenazim.  It
is certainly one of the most precise tikkunim I have ever seen, and
essential if you want to distinguish between Shva Na and Shva Nach and
between Kamatz Gadol and Katan.


From: Emmanuel Ifrah <eifrah@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:27:32 +0200
Subject: Women and tefilin

For a recent source stating -- at least theoretically -- that women can
wear tefilin, try the lengthy chidush at the beginning of the "Or
Sameach" (by R. Meir Simcha ha-Cohen mi-Dvinsk), in Hilchot Talmud Tora
(in the end of the chidush).

Emmanuel Ifrah (Paris, France)


End of Volume 37 Issue 10