Volume 37 Number 16
                 Produced: Tue Sep 24 21:37:49 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Asking a non-Jew to ask another non-Jew
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Buttons on kittel's
         [Jack Wechsler]
Cause of assimilation?
         [Shmuel Ross]
The Inuyim of Yom Kippur & the Expulsion from Eden
         [Avi I Rabinowitz]
Kashrut in Trieste, Italy
         [Hannah and Daniel Katsman]
machlokes calendars
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
"Men only seating" - update
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Oleinu on YomKipur
Online Treasury of Talmudic Manuscripts
         [Elhanan Adler]
Perpetual Hebrew Calendar
         [Joshua Hosseinof]
         [Stan Tenen]
YerushalmiOnline.org Announcement


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 17:00:36 +0300
Subject: Re: Asking a non-Jew to ask another non-Jew

  Zev Sero <zev.sero@...> was astute enough to declare on 
Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:18:29 -0400 :

>The root of your misunderstanding seems to be that you imagine that
>there are two separate prohibitions: telling a goy, and benefiting from
>what a goy has done.  In fact, I think you actually said this once in so
>many words.  But this is not true.  There is no separate prohibition at
>all on benefiting from a goy's work; rather, it's all part of the
>prohibition on telling a goy.

Actually, there are indeed two separate prohibitions (and no

They are stated in OH resh `ayin vav (amira lenokhri) and shin kaf he

These are two separate issues with the possibility of overlap, depending
on the particular circumstances.

>If your Rabbi has said otherwise, then your Rabbi is wrong
>(`ta'ah bidvar mishna'). It really is as simple as that.

If that's so, then I suppose that there are lots (and lots) of rabbis in
the world who are guilty of this error <g>.



From: Jack Wechsler <wechsler@...>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:09:46 +0200
Subject: Buttons on kittel's

I wonder if other people have noticed the same as I did this year. Some
kittel's for the yomim norayim have the buttons on the left and the
buttonholes on the right.ie. they buttonup like a female garment surely
there is a reason ?

It can't have anything to do with the kittel a person wears at the age
of 120 + 1 day because the kittel used has tapes not buttons (at least
in Israel) I'm also told that most chevra kaddisha's cut the buttons off
if a person is buried in his own kittel (chatzizoh !)

The only reason I can come up with is that the person's who make
kittel's are women seamstresses and therefore there is a genuine mistake
.The kittel I wear ,does up the right way for a gent's garment.

Anyone have any ideas ??
Jack Wechsler


From: Shmuel Ross <shmuel@...>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:38:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cause of assimilation?

David Curwin <tobyndave@...> asked...

> What I am interested in is knowing whether the rabbis at that time, or
> later, gave a similar explanation as to why the "punishment" of
> assimilation came upon them?

   Who has suggested that assimilation was, or is, a "punishment"?  We
do have free will, you know... one might look at sociological,
historical, or ideological reasons for assimilation, but your initial
premise (that various ills befalling the Jewish people have been
ascribed to the effects of assimilation) seems to contradict, not
support, the suggestion that assimilation itself is some sort of Divine



From: Avi I Rabinowitz <air1@...>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:59:24 -0400
Subject: The Inuyim of Yom Kippur & the Expulsion from Eden

The Inuyim of YK & the Expulsion from Eden

The inuyim of YK are not made explicit in the chumash: here is a
possible 'derivation' (condensed from my article):

On YK (which was established also to atone for the transgression of
Eden) one attempts to transcend the physical and be more like the angels
(eg one says baruch shem kvod aloud and wears a kittel); and to be more
like Adam/Eve were prior to transgression/expulsion. 

The change in their state is indicated by the terms of the expulsion
edict (note: Adam and Eve were NOT cursed, only the snake and the ground
were), and the parallel to the inuyim is clear:  

"by the sweat of your brow": before transgression there was no sweat
and zuhama, this was due to Adams new condition: therefore we do not
wash or anoint ourselves to smell or look better;  

"by the sweat of your brow shall you eat bread"; before there was no
need to make food, it was all available, nor was it necessary to eat in
order to be sustained (and of course the transgression involved eating);
so on YK we do not eat and drink; 

"you will give birth in labor = pain, and your man will you desire,
and he will rule over you": Man was immortal and marital relations
were not necessary to maintain the species; in atonement and to
approach the pre-transgression level, on YK  we have no marital

"thorns will be in your path - the snake will rear his head and you
will give him your heel": we do not wear shoes for protection. (God
made leather garments, so perhaps this is why the garment we are
forbidden to use, shoes, is forbidden if they are leather.)  

[Possibly also: "harbeh arbeh etzvonech, itzavon is 'work/labor' in
Iyov, and in general Mankind was now to work for a living: also, had
there not been transgression erev shabbat we would have entered the
first shabbos at the highest level: so on we do not do mlacha on shabat

The essential transgression may have been Adam's blaming his wife, and
so YK is meant not merely between Man and God but (perhaps even mainly)
to ask each other for forgiveness. 

By refraining from eating, drinking, washing, anointing, wearing
protective leather shoes, and marital relations, and by seeking
rapprochement with our fellow human beings we can atone for the
transgression, and also approach temporarily the pre-transgression

May we be zocheh. 
Gmar Chatima Tova. 


From: Hannah and Daniel Katsman <hannahpt@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:53:05 +0200
Subject: Kashrut in Trieste, Italy

I will be in Trieste, Italy on business next week.  There is a nursing
home there, "Pia Casa Gentilomo", run by the Jewish community, which has
a restaurant that also caters to tourists.  The restaurant is billed as
"GLATT KOSHER with a permanent Mashgiach".

Does anyone have any idea who the mashgichim might be?  Can anyone refer
me to someone who would have that information?  Is the hashgacha part of
a larger kashrut network within Europe?

Please answer quickly, either on Mail-Jewish or privately, as I am
leaving on Sunday Sept. 29.

Thank you very much for your assistance.

Hag same'ah,
Daniel Katsman
Petah Tikva, Israel


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:06:17 +0200
Subject: machlokes calendars

> Just be careful to consider the fact that during the 18th century there
> was a very confusing "machlokus" between different countries about
> whether to use the Julian or Gregorian calendars, so any date from that
> period has to be checked as to which calendar it refers to.

This point was once made to me in an interesting way.  In the
sefer/memoir Mekor Baruch, by R. Baruch haLevi Epstein (the "Torah
Temima", son of the "`Aruch haShulchan"), in the introduction (hakdama),
the author states: "Az bitchilat shnat heh tav resh `ayin zayin, chet
tisrei, (3/16 September mishnat 1915)".

The first thing to note here is that Tishrei 5677 was in 1916, not
1915. Checking Kaluach for both of those years shows that the author
obviously intended to write (or wrote, and there was a transcription
error later) 5676. In that year, 8 Tishrei fell on the 3rd of September,
according to the Julian calendar, as was in use in Russia (and satellite
nations?), but it was already the 16th, in those Western countries which
had already accepted the Gregorian system.

BTW, Kaluach allows you to choose which Gregorian transition date should
be in effect, when looking at dates which differ.

Chag Sameach,
Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://shimonl.findhere.org/PGP/


From: Shmuel Himelstein <shmuelh@...>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:44:16 +0200
Subject: "Men only seating" - update

I passed the same baguette place Erev Yom Kippur and lo and behold, a
woman and her children were sitting there! And the "men only" sign had
been taken down. Since all I did was to protest a few months ago, it's
certainly not thanks to me. Maybe another reader was instrumental?

Shmuel Himelstein


From: .cp. <chips@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Oleinu on YomKipur

Whilst looking at several YomKipur Machzorym to see what is done at end
of Musaf in regards to Oleinu. The ArtScroll's edition is quite
interesting. They state that Oleinu is skipped due to Mincha directly
following Musaf, without an interuption. This is interesting on 2

	1: How many shuls that are the target audience of ArtScroll do
not have a break between Musaf and Mincha?
	2: In simin 4222, note 3 the MishnaBerura states that the
KriasTora is considered a break ( hefsek ).

Actually, the whole situation of the Musaf/Mincha bridge is quite
interesting, especially when going by the MishnaBerura. The Mechaver
says that Ashrei,etc should be said at beginning of Mincha. The MB
states that is in order to have a ' hefsek ' between Musaf and
Mincha. In that case, Oleinu should definitely be said at end of
*Mincha*.  In addition, if KriasTora is considered to be a ' hefsek ' in
davening, why isn't Oleinu said at end of Shacharis, not just YomKipur
but also Shabos & YomTov?

side note: where i have been davening the past 11 years we do Mincha at
the earliest possible time and then there is a very long break till
Niela, I asked a posek way back when about doing Oleinu (the minyan had
no rav at the time) and was told to do so at end of Musaf (since there
was a 15 minute or so break) and at the end of Mincha. And that is what
we do.



From: Elhanan Adler <elhanan@...>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:39:17 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Online Treasury of Talmudic Manuscripts

I think the following will be of interest to mail-jewish readers

gmar hatimah tovah
Elhanan Adler

- Online Treasury of Talmudic Manuscripts

The Jewish National and University Library, David and Fela Shapell
Family Digitization Project and the Hebrew University Department of
Talmud are happy to announce the opening to the public of the Online
Treasury of Talmudic Manuscripts. This project will bring together
images of major Talmudic manuscripts from libraries throughout the
world. Many public and private institutions have already given
permission for use of images of their manuscripts. Some of these are
already in the site while others are in various stages of preparation
and will be added in coming months.

Currently the site contains the Kaufmann Mishnah (Budapest) and some
tractates from Seder Moed, Nashim and Kodashim.

The manuscripts are indexed to enable access by standard citation
(tractate, daf and amud for the Talmud Bavli, and tractate, chapter and
mishna for the Mishna).

The site is found at:

It is best viewed with Microsoft Explorer version 5 or higher.


From: Joshua Hosseinof <jh@...>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:18:25 -0400
Subject: Perpetual Hebrew Calendar

Seeing all the divergent responses on the dates of Chanukah in 1755, I
rechecked the Bar Ilan Responsa Calendar, and I had indeed misread the
months.  Chanukah in 1755 started on November 29th, and ended on
December 6th.  For 1756, Chanukah started on December 18th and ended
December 25th (according to the Bar Ilan Responsa v8).



From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:42:06 -0400
Subject: Thunderstorm

At one point yesterday (Yom Kippur) I went into my room, and discovered
that because there had been a series of thunder and lightning storms
here in Sharon, the television had turned itself on, and was happily
broadcasting -- of all things -- a picture of the late actor, Jack Lord.

Eventually I just flopped an old newspaper over the TV, and that
completely covered it.  (The sound wasn't on because it works through
the hi-fi, and the thunderstorm didn't turn that on.)

Here's my question.  Since "Jack Lord" turned on the TV, should I have
watched it?

Okay, here's my real question.  I could have knocked the antenna wire
off its clip-lead.  There's no spark, and neither any measurable voltage
nor current that's switched if I were to do this.  (That is, not
measurable by ordinary measuring equipment like a volt meter.
Obviously, the TV receiver measures something, or there wouldn't be a
picture. But that's comparably even more "microscopic" than microscopic
bugs that are acceptable on lettuce, and more microscopic than visible
accidental discharges of static electricity from walking on a plastic
carpet on a dry day.)

Is it halachically acceptable to open or close a switch when there is no
spark, and no measurable current passes, and what's gained is a return
to a quiet sabbath or yom tov?  I'm guessing that this would be okay.
If so, which is the best choice?  Covering the TV?  Knocking off the
antenna (when that's trivially easy)?  Or is this a case where I have to
leave the room until after yom tov?



From: yerushalmi-announce <admin@...>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:37:40 -0400
Subject: YerushalmiOnline.org Announcement

YerushalmiOnline.org Announcement!

We are conducting a poll about the usage of MP3 files. This will help us
adjust our files in terms of size and quality to serve your needs
better. Please visit our web site at:


and submit your vote.

Thank You.
YerushalmiOnline.org Staff


End of Volume 37 Issue 16