Volume 37 Number 30
                 Produced: Tue Oct  8  4:08:22 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aleinu on Yom Kippur
Beyond Melitz Yosher
         [Harlan Braude]
Haskala's Beginnings
         [Shalom Carmy]
Havdalah and orange juice
         [Mike Gerver]
Holishkes and Kreplach
         [David Farkas]
Jews in need
         [Robert Goldman]
Minyan on Airplanes
         [Dov Teichman]
Moses Mendelssohn
         [Avram Montag]
The proper place of mxica in Jewish theology
         [Shlomo Argamon]
S'lach Lanu after Ne'ilah


From: <chips@...>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:57:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Aleinu on Yom Kippur

> From: Yehonatan and Randy Chipman <yonarand@...>
>  .cp. asked (v37n16) when, if at all, one should say Aleinu on Yom
> Kippur.
>        Aleinu (and Ein Kelokeinu) are omitted in standard nushaot and
> mahzorim because of the old tradition that Yom Kppur is a day devoted
> entirely to prayer, and one doesn't leave shul at all.  This minhag took
> hold whether or not this is in fact the case.

Ein Kelokeinu is a different point and is discussed in the Shulchan
Aruch. The discussion is based on whether or not talking about the
Avoda, which included the incense, during the Musaf is enough.



From: Harlan Braude <h.braude@...>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 08:26:02 -0400
Subject: RE: Beyond Melitz Yosher

David and Toby Curwin write:
> While the cases are certainly different, the message the gemara implies
> is that if there is a situation with significant danger, than
> "miraculous" promises don't always apply, whether they be that "those

In support of this, see the Avi Ezer who expands on the words of the Ibn
Ezra on Devarim 20:7.

The topic is the military exemption for those who have just built a
house or planted a vineyard and newlyweds. The language of the Torah is
'pen yamus bemilchama' or perchance he will die in battle.

The Ibn Ezra/Avi Ezer asks what does the Torah mean by 'perchance'? If
it's this person's time to die, then he will die whether he's in battle
or if he's sitting at home and if it's not his time to die, then he
won't die!

The answer, according to the Ibn/Ezra, is that the Torah is teaching us
that if a person is in a dangerous situation then all bets are off. Even
if it isn't this person's "time" to die, in war there's a possibility
that he could get killed anyway.

Quite a revelation - and an unsettling one at that! (lo aleinu!)


From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 23:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Haskala's Beginnings

> I recommend Mr. Kahn and his professor read Azriel Shohat's book "Im
> Hilufei Tekufot" which makes the case that the Haskalah was already in
> swing before Mendelssohn appeared on the scene.  Jewish society through
> the first half of the 18th century had changed, was more open, and was
> studying non-Torah subjects such as music and french. a cursory reading
> of the drashot of R. Yehonatan Eybeshutz demonstrates this.  Just note
> the quote by the mishnah berura in his beur halakha, orach chayim, 339,
> s.v. lehakel.

Schochat does NOT say that. He says that there was significant involvement
in secular studies and that there was already wide breakdown in shemirat
ha-mitzvot etc. This clearly implies that Mendelssohn cannot be blamed for
these phenomena. Schochat also collects many sources demonstrating that
Mendelssohn was widely admired among all sectors of German Jewry during
first century after his death.

More recent scholarship shows how far Mendelssohn strove to counteract
these tendencies. E.g. Edward Breuer's Harvard PhD.

When Schochat appeared 40 years ago, his position was not unchallenged;
see Mevorach's review in Kiryat Sefer. Nonetheless it is important and I
rely on it in my courses.

But laxness in religion is not the same thing as Haskala, defined as a
movement. For definitions of Haskala, see Shmuel Feiner's concluding essay
in the book he edited with Sorkin, New Perspectives on the Haskala. Feiner
just published a comprehensive study called Mahpekhat haNeorut.


From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 03:27:01 EDT
Subject: Havdalah and orange juice

Wendy Baker writes, in v37n27,

> Frozen orange juice concentrate is just that, natural orange juice with
>  some of the wter removed.  When you add back the water it once again is
>  plain orange juice.

I read somewhere that when they boil down the natural orange juice to
concentrate it, the heat destroys the oils that give oranges their
fragrance, and if you then reconstituted it by adding water, it would
just taste sweet and sour, but without the characteristic orange
flavor. To restore the orange flavor, they add ground orange rind to the
concentrate before freezing it. I have no idea what, if any,
implications this has for using frozen orange juice for havdalah.

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: David Farkas <DavidF@...>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:49:59 -0400 
Subject: Holishkes and Kreplach

Jeremy Rose wrote in 37:26 the following:

> On a similar note: I heard that a reason for eating Holishkes (or
> Cholipshes for the Chassidishe Olom) on Succos and Kreplach on Rosh
> Hashonoh is that meat represents Middas Ha'Din and vegetables/flour
> represents Middas Ho'Rachamim, so we cover over the Din with Rachamim.
> Some also eat them on Purim for a different reason - Hester Ponim.

First, Reb Jeremy neglected to mention the name given these treats by
Hungarians ( the only real Jews, as any good Hungarian will tell you):
Kapushtes. Although this word simply means cabbages, its taken to mean
the cabage rolls we eat on Simchas Torah. The reason I heard is that
they resemble rolled up scrolls of sifrei Torah. This might explain why
the Sefardim, whose sifrei Torah look a little different than the
Ashkenazim, don't have this custom.

The reason we eat Kreplach on Purim is the same reason many Jews also
eat Kreplach on Erev Yom Kippur and Hoshanna Rabbah.  On all of these
days melacha/work is permitted. Because of this, many people forget the
great holiness attached to these days. Their holiness is hidden, if you
will, or concealed. (if you won't). The krepl, which has its true
delicacy of meat wrapped inside a thick layer of dough, is an
appropriate symbolic food.

zai gezunt,
David Farkas


From: <BobGoldNY@...> (Robert Goldman)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:02:49 EDT
Subject: Jews in need

Many Orthodox Jews have lost jobs or entire businesses in recent months
and find themselves in unfamiliar need. Many of them are unfamiliar with
halachot of hesed that entitle them to borrow from others to meet their
needs without having to sell homes or withdraw children from day
schools. Many are too emarrassed to ask for help. Communal leaders have
the obligation to explain and urge observance of the halachot of gemilut
hasadim as much as any other mitzva (personal communication from Rav
Aaron Tendler).

It is also important for communities that have not previously considered
it necessary to create gemachs for those in temporary need. I am
gathering information to compile a comprehensive database of gemachs
around the world.  The listings will be permanently posted online at
<gemach@...>  Please help by providing the following
information about any gemach you know.

Name (if any);item(s) it lends; special provisions (e.g., rental fee
contributed to a charity); contact information (e.g., person, telephone,
address, website); limitations or other qualifications.  Please include
mention of something that delighted you since Rosh HaShana.

Current listings include gemachs for paying off loans, for computers,
toys, wedding gowns, telecommunications, office equipment, furniture,
books, religious articles, medicines, baby sitting, etc., primarily in
and around New York and in Israel. To find help contact

Robert Goldman (212) 873-5136 <BobGoldNY@...> 304 W. 75th St. #11E NYC 10023


From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 13:10:09 -0400
Subject: Minyan on Airplanes

I recently flew from New York to Tel Aviv and after flying through the
night, I was awakened by the sound of a Chazan in the back of the plane
leading Shachris. I noticed other passengers very disturbed at having
been woken up by the religious passengers praying in the aisles,
blocking the bathrooms, blocking stewardesses, etc.

Are there halachic implications of having a minyan where it disturbs or
wakes others? (Chillul Hashem/Gezel Shaina)

(Another point: This Chazan was an mourner/chiyuv saying kaddish. Would
we tell him to miss saying kaddish because the minyan may disturb

I'm wondering if any seforim/rabbonim have addressed this sensitive issue.

Dov Teichman


From: Avram Montag <avram.montag@...>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:34:32 +0200 
Subject: Moses Mendelssohn

Margolis and Marx (A History of the Jewish People, New York, 1978,
p.595) have the following to say about Moses Mendelssohn's translation
of the Chumash:

		By his translation of the Pentateuch into German,
printed in Hebrew characters, begun in 1778 and completed in 1783,
Mendelssohn pursued a twofold purpose. On the one hand, by habituating
Jewish students to the use of German in the rendering the Scriptures, it
was easy to foresee that they would be led further to the reading of
German literature; as a matter of fact, Mendelssohn's translation served
as a First German Reader. On the other hand, the new translation and the
accompanying Hebrew commentary were conceived in a rational spirit, with
stress on the Bible as literature to be esthetically enjoyed. Thus in
both respects a far-reaching change in the education of the Jewish
child, so utterly at variance with the methods in vogue was being
promoted. It is not to be wondered at that the guardians of
traditionalism in Prague, Altona, Frankfort, and Furth, put the
translation under the ban. The spiritual authorities of Berlin [where
Mendelssohn lived] were more lenient.

Calling the translation, "a First German Reader" is no exaggeration. In
the works of S.Y. Agnon, e.g. in The Hachnasat Kallah and Two Talmedei
Chachamim, there are several references to Rabbis who secured cushy
pulpits on the basis of having mastered German by reading Mendelssohn's
translation.  Perhaps Reb Itzele, of theVolozhin Yeshiva, was also
trying to learn German.

The content of the commentary (Biur) is in line with traditional sources
(see Mendelssohn in the Encyclopedia Judaica).  The rabbis' objection is
primarily to the language and form of Mendelssohn's project, not the
content. That being the case, there should be no objection to discussing
ideas raised therein in an English language forum that admits Margolis
and Marx, the EJ, and Agnon.

Avram Montag


From: Shlomo Argamon <argamon@...>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:23:29 -0500
Subject: Re: The proper place of mxica in Jewish theology

> From: David I. Cohen <bdcohen@...>
> There are many Toraitic commandments that halachic literature tells us
> will never again be applicable. Most famously, the Rambam (although his
> opinion is far from unanimously accepted) holds that animal sacrafices
> will not be instituted in the 3rd Beit Hamikdash.

This understanding of the Rambam is far from clear (although it is
widely held by non-Orthodox scholarship).  One is forced to ask, if
Rambam held that sacrifices were temporary mitsvot, why did he count
them in the 613?  He nowhere makes a clear, unequivocal statement that
sacrifices will be abolished.  His comments in the Moreh must be
properly understood - the fact that sacrifices have a secondary
principle (historical dependency for details) does not mean that when
that historical rationale no longer applies that the mitsvah is thereby
abolished.  It does seem that there is a philosophical inconsistency
between Rambam's view of "intelllectual perfection" as the goal of Torah
and the eternal mitsvah of sacrifices, but it is far from obvious that
he takes the easy way out.  The qashya stands.



From: smeth <smeth@...>
Subject: RE: S'lach Lanu after Ne'ilah

Neil Normand asks why we ask G-d for forgiveness in Ma'ariv after Yom
Kippur, after just doing so in Neilah.

I heard this in a broader question which points out an apparent
incongruity in the start and end of Yom Kippur.  At Kol Nidre, we're
full from the seu'dah hamafsekes, the fast has barely begun, and we're
just getting into the Yom Kippur mood.  Yet we immediately don our
Kittels, say "Baruch Shem Kevod Malchuso" out loud, and are compared to
angels.  OTOH, after Neilah, after spending a full day in Shul in
fasting, repentance, and intense prayer, we immediately remove our
Kittels, say "Baruch Shem Kevod Malchuso" in a whisper, and say "Selach

The answer to this dilemma, as in many other things Jewish, is "it's not
where you are, but where you're going."  Kol Nidre night, we are going
INTO Yom Kippur: our thoughts are on "eimas hadin" [the trepidation of
judgment], and on repentance.  Therefore, we are immediately in the
category of angels.  After Neilah, we are coming OUT of Yom Kippur.
Many people, unfortunately, are thinking about what they will eat to
break their fast, and tomorrow's tasks at work (see Mateh Efrayim for a
beautiful piece on people looking at their watches as Yom Kippur wanes),
and other mundane thoughts.  Therefore, we lose our loftiness
immediately, and have what to say "Selach Lanu" about.


End of Volume 37 Issue 30