Volume 37 Number 42
                 Produced: Sun Oct 20  6:13:59 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Artscroll Siddur for Israel
         [Akiva Miller]
Becoming a Minister
         [Chaim Shapiro]
         [Bob Goldman]
Maachal Ben Drosai
         [Alexandre Elmkies]
Maimionides Attitude Towards Sacrifices
         [Russell J Hendel]
Marat Eiyen on Shabbat
Men vs. Women Carrying in Eiruv
         [Binyomin Segal]
Post yom kippur s'lach lanu.
         [Barry Best]
Source of Cohanim
Staying in Amsterdam
         [Frank Reiss]


From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:39:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Artscroll Siddur for Israel

In MJ 37:36, Shmuel Himelstein wrote <<< I spoke to one of the
principals of Artscroll about an Israeli version of their Siddurim and
Machzorim. He told that they had investigated the possibility, but had
found that the price they would have to charge would make it impossible
for them to compete in the Israeli market with the local Siddurim. >>>

Perhaps he was thinking of a *specifically* Israeli version. But if a
single edition would integrate both the Israeli and Abroad minhagim, the
great majority of the changes would involve only changes to the
instructions (such as skipping Baruch HaShem L'Olam and V'Shamru) or
minor changes to the text (like adding Morid HaTal). The only major
changes I can thing of would be for adding Duchaning everywhere, for
Musaf Chol Hamoed Sukkos, and for Seder Bris Milah.

Would these changes price it out of the market? Is the Chutz L'aretz
version of Artscroll sold in Israel today or not? I remember new baalei
teshuva trying to use Birnbaum at Ohr Somayach in the 70's; it was not
easy. I'm sure that today they'd appreciate a version of Artscroll which
had directions for both Israel and Chutz L'aretz.

Akiva Miller


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:24:46 EDT
Subject: Becoming a Minister

Working in the field I do, I could save a substantial amount of money if
I were able to declare parsonage.  I am not a Rabbi, and I don't think I
would ever have the time to attain semicha.  I have heard from others
that there are Christian Ministries which will declare a person a
Reverend for a small fee, without any religious requirements.  Is it
Halchaikally permissible to pay for, receive and use the title of
Reverend from a Christian Ministry if I in no way believe in any of the
tenets of their faith?

Chaim Shapiro


From: <BobGoldNY@...> (Bob Goldman)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:44:30 EDT
Subject: Gemach

Thank you all for the many responses to our request for listings of
gemachs.  I apologize to those who received incorrect addresses for

I appreciate that all gemach listings for Jerusalem or Lakewood or even
Har Nof and Passaic are beyond our ability to list in detail, but we
would welcome information to enable people to get copies of such large
lists both for their own needs and for contributions. We have found
several beautifully designed and useful sites.

We would continue to welcome information INCLUDING contacts and the
kinds of needs a gemach addresses, especially in smaller cities outside
Metropolitan New York and outside Israel. We respect the enormous
generosity of Haredi communities and wonder if there are more underother

We welcome obsdervations on unserved needs. i can personally vouch for
further job losses in the U.S. Northeast, including more of my friends
and respected baalabatim. None has sought to borrow from other Jews or a
gemach, and most are not aware of local resources.

Bob Goldman, New York


From: Alexandre Elmkies <Alexandre.ELMKIES@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:04:53 +0200
Subject: Maachal Ben Drosai

Shalom all,

Please find below a question about hilchot bishul beshabbos.

A well known concept in hilchot shabbos is the minimal cooked state for
a meal. It is defined as a meal which is cooked like "maachal ben
drosai" and corresponds to a "half cooked" or "one third cooked" state,
depending on the shitos.

One could define, based on common sense, the "cooked" state as the state
of something edible.

But what about 'half cooked' (or 'one third cooked')? Is this state
defined based on half the time necessary to completely cook the food? Or
is there an intrinsic-scientific definition of this state which is not
the same since, from a scientific point of view, the equation is not
'linear'.  (For the non scientific readers, i.e. that if it takes 10 mn
to boil a cup of water, which corresponds to 100degC-212degF, it will
not take 5 mn to reach 50degC-122degF).

Thank you all for your feedback on this issue.

Igal Elmkies.


From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:00:21 -0400
Subject: Maimionides Attitude Towards Sacrifices

Yehuda Landy and Shalom Carmy (v37n15) both emphasize that despite
appearances to the contrary the Rambam did believe in the restoration of
the temple and sacrifice(Also see Shlmos posting v37n30)

Just wanted to add that I wrote an article MAIMONIDEES ATTITUDE TOWARDS
SACRIFICES (Tradition, 1973) in which I bring strong arguments (From the
Rambam himself) that the Rambam did not believe what he wrote in the
Guide(About sacrifices).  Rather the Rambam deliberately wrote
misleading statements in the Guide (That sacrifies are temporary
commandments) in order to save vulnerable segments of Jewry from
assimilating (Since many were leaving Judaism because of the Greek
criticisms of the sacrifices).

Russell Jay Hendel;(If you want offprints of this article email me with
your snail address)


From: <chips@...>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:49:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Marat Eiyen on Shabbat

> From: Rachel Swirsky <swirskyr@...>
> My husband learned from Rabbi Jacobi here in Toronto that there are most
> certainly things that are not allowed on Shabbat because of Marat Eiyen.
> One very common example is that one may not leave clothes in the washing
> machine or dryer over Shabbat because someone might see it and think it
> was done on Shabbat.  This is a fairly strict level of Marat Eiyen as it
> is in ones own home and is (presumably) cut off over Shabbat (even the
> washing machine itself is generally closed and not likely to be opened
> over Shabbat... it is very likely that there is no way that anyone could
> know whether or not there was something in there.) An example of where
> this level is okay is on the last day of Succot/Pessach in chutz
> l'aretz... and Israeli does not need to keep the day as Yom Tov, but he
> or she can only do things in private.

Rabbi Teitz from this list sent me the same halacha. I'll give her an 
abridged version of my response to him.
	People use private eiruv's and serve hot food without fear of 
`marat eiyen`. The entire issue of extending a tchum would not 
apply if we were concerned about `marat eiyen`. 
The onus would be on those who want to say `marat eiyen` as a 
reason not to do something.

[Actually, I think the "onus" is on the one delivering a halachic p'sak
to be able to distinguish what falls under the halachic rubric of "marat
eiyen" and what does not. If one of the members of the list would like
to try and give some guidance on what might fall under marat eiyen and
what does not, that would probably be valuable. Mod.]


From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:48:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Men vs. Women Carrying in Eiruv

I've held back on discussing this issue, but now that we are all
convinced that it is wrong, I would like to say a few words in defense
of the distinction.

Personally, I do not carry in any eruv, and I "allow" my wife and child
to do so. My personal reason for this is quite straight forward - this
is what my rebbe did. In fact, since we have heard about all the rabbis
who argue against such practice, I would point out that my rebbe (Rav
Yerachmiel Chosid, currently a maggid shiur in Meir Yeshiva,
Yerushalayim) was a talmid of Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz. My understanding
was that this care in not imposing chumros on his family came from Rav

My rebbe is careful never to impose a chumra on his family. Not only did
he insist that his wife and children carry in the eruv, they also ended
Shabbos 30 minutes after shkia which is the "standard" minhag in
Yerushalayim (though he waited till 50 or 60 minutes).

His explanation to me was pretty straight forward. The Shach (in his
"Rules of Psak") points out that every chumra comes with a kula. As
Allen Gerstl pointed out in a recent post, there are ramifications of
all sorts that come from any single decision to be machmir. Certainly
this means one must be very careful with chumras, but it does not mean
not to have them at all.  Chumras have been around for a long time
(Yosef had some, and while indeed he may be an example of the negative
results of chumros, chazal, in rebuking him, point to how he went too
far by misjudging his brothers, not to the fact of his chumros per se.)

Before accepting any chumra, one has to carefully examine the possible
results, and then make a decision, a psak, about whether the positives
outweigh the negatives. This should not be a single decision point, but
rather an ongoing process. For example, a post earlier in this thread
mentioned a story about Rav Shlomo Zalman being upset that a person
allowed his chumras to get in the way of kibud av. This does not mean
that in general the chumra is inappropriate, just that it can't be
allowed to lead to this result. Chumros are, and should be, more dynamic
and fluid then ikkar hadin.

What has been missing from our discussion until now, is the positive
value in accepting chumros. Without going into too much detail in this
post, I would suggest that chumros are the vehicle by which individuals
define their personal relationship with HKBH. While everyone is required
to follow halacha, chumoros are by definition an individual's
choice. And they should be based on that individual's spiritual needs
and strengths. Two quick examples might help clarify. While most people
are discouraged from becoming a Nazir, there are situations where it is
considered appropriate. And while the gemara assumes that being machmir
not to walk on the edge of fields is an inappropriate chumra for most,
it acknowledges that for some it is a good thing (see Baba Kamma

Specifically in regard to eruv, I would share the following insights. As
other posters have pointed out the normative halacha is to define most
"public properties" as a "karmalit" and thus to allow carrying in an
eruv in most cities. However, as anyone who has learned through the
gemara will attest that is not the impression an intellectually honest
scholar would get from learning the texts. As a result, while it is true
that we have the right to follow the normative halchic practice, it is
also true that intellectual honesty makes that practice less than ideal.

There is no easy solution to this dilemma. To simply ignore ones opinion
is dishonest. But on the other hand, clearly the halachik process needs
to have a role in ones practice. One can not simply ignore Jewish
practice and go off on ones own. This is also untrue to the halachic
process which has been vested in the Jewish people - im lo neviim heim,
bnei neviim heim (if they are not prophets, they are children of

Certainly there are different ways out of this dilemma. None of them
entirely optimal. In my own practice, I see the value in "allowing" my
wife to carry, while not carrying myself. This forces me to admit that
the halacha is that carrying is allowed, while at the same time allowing
me some token of respect to my own intellectual process.

Although I hope this does not become an annual event,
my new email address is:


From: Barry Best <barry.h.best@...>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:49:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Post yom kippur s'lach lanu. 

If I recall correctly, there are some sins for which yom kippur does not
completely atone, but merely suspends punishment. In some cases,
suffering atones and in more severe cases (eg, chilul hashem) suffering
suspends and only death atones. If so, s'lach lanu would still be
appropriate for those sins that were merely suspended.

Btw, those sins for which baba ben buta would bring an asham talui
likely would have been atoned for on yom kippur rendering it unnecessary
the day after (I say only "likely" since it is certainly possible that
on yom kippur itself he may have been in doubt as to whether he violated
a lav and so would need to bring an asham talui).


From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:34:20 -0400
Subject: Source of Cohanim

I have a question regarding the source of all the Cohanim in our times,
and I wonder if any other participants have ever seen this discussed in
print or considered this point. At the time of Matan Torah, there were
600,000 adult male Jews, and 5 Cohanim. That is .0000083%. Today, one
out of every twenty five or thirty people are cohanim, around 4%-3%, if
not even higher. How did Cohanim manage to increase at such an
astounding proportion? If there are 21 million Jews today, then the same
proportion of Cohanim would mean that there are 35 in the entire Klal


From: Frank Reiss <freiss47@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:44:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Staying in Amsterdam

I will need to be in Amsterdam over Shabbos next month. The last time I
was there, I was told that there is a Shule near the Concert center in
the Museums area, where there is also a Kosher restaraunt in the Jewish
Students Center. I could not locate this Shule. If anyone knows about
this area of the city please contact me off line, as well if there is
another area with a Shule, please let me know as well. I have checked
the usual places (Shamash.org, etc...) but cannot find the Shules.

Frank Reiss


End of Volume 37 Issue 42