Volume 37 Number 88
                 Produced: Sat Dec  7 20:52:40 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Delay after Brocho
         [Jay F Shachter]
Henetz HaChama
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
The Making of a Godol (4)
         [c. halevi, <rubin20@...>, Lawrence Kaplan, Deborah Wenger]
New York Times article about the Orthodox farmer
         [Eliezer Wenger]
The Orthodox farmer
         [Jack Wechsler]
Touching Muktzah
         [Michael Kahn]


From: Jay F Shachter <jay@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:19:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Delay after Brocho

Figuring out the maximum number of benedictions which can intervene
between a benediction over food and the ingestion of said food has held
my interest for a long time.  Here is the (so far as is currently known)
best-case scenario, excerpted from an article in mail.jewish v24n26 (see
http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v24/mj_v24i26.html#CHC if you have
Internet connectivity):

   Here is the scenario: a farmer grew some grain and gave some of it as
   Truma to a Kohen, or a Kohenet, or the mother of a Kohen.  The person
   who received the Truma grain then made flour from it, and dough from
   the flour, at which point she separated Xallah from the dough, and
   gave it to a Kohen.  This Kohen donated the Xallah to the Temple,
   where it was baked into the showbread.  The following Saturday night,
   which happened to be the eve of Sukkot, the showbread was used for
   Qiddush by a priest who had no wine.  We have nine benedictions in
   this scenario (I am unsure whether the benedictions marked with an
   asterisk are in the right order, because I can't find them in my

   1)  hammotzi lexem min ha'arets
   2*) asher qiddshanu biqdushato shel 'Aharon vtsivvanu le'ekhol truma
   3*) asher qiddshanu biqdushato shel 'Aharon vtsivvanu le'ekhol xalla
   4*) asher qiddshanu biqdushato shel 'Aharon vtsivvanu le'ekhol et
       lexem happanim [I think there should be an "'et" in that benediction]
   5)  mqaddesh yisra'el vhazzmannim
   6)  bore' m'orey ha'esh
   7)  hammavdil beyn qodesh lqodesh
   8)  asher qiddshanu bmitsvotav vtsivvanu leyshev bassukka
   9)  shehexeyanu vqiyymanu vhiggi`anu lazzman hazzeh

   I don't want anyone to tell me that the first night of Sukkot can't
   be on a Saturday night, because it isn't true.

   It doesn't seem plausible, though, that you can get as many
   benedictions out of qiddush as you can get out of the consummation of
   a marriage, where you start out with seven benedictions free of
   charge.  There ought to be something creative you can do with the
   marriage scenario that gives you more benedictions, but I can't think
   what it could be.

Mail.jewish readers willing to spend time on this crucial question are
invited to improve on this record by finding scenarios involving ten or
more consecutive benedictions.  So far nine is the best I can do.  As
mentioned above, it seems plausible that we could do something with the
marriage blessings, but the big problem there is that you can't use
bread for the ceremony, you have to use wine.  You can get another
benediction in there by making the wine from fourth-year produce, or
from Truma, but that only brings you up to eight benedictions.  Even if
you get married on Sukkot, which you're not supposed to do, that still
only gives you one more benediction, and only if you can say the Sukka
benediction over wine which, unlike Qiddush wine, need not be part of a
meal.  It is not clear that the Sukka benediction should be said under
those circumstances, and still, it doesn't break the record, it only
ties it.

			Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
			6424 N Whipple St, Chicago IL  60645-4111
			<jay@...>	http://m5.chi.il.us


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:27:08 +0200
Subject: Re: Henetz HaChama

>In a similar (or opposite) vein, what is commonly pronounced 'Dor
>Haflagah' is properly 'Dor HapPlagah'.  The Heh in this case is a
>definite article, not part of the gerund form of hif'il.

While the note is certainly correct, the Steinsalz gemara gives the
vocalization as dor hapalaga, while I have a dictionary that also gives

I think that theoretically, in any event, these three are valid
possibilities, in that they fit recognized noun patterns.



From: c. halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:25:56 -0600
Subject: The Making of a Godol

Shalom, All:

	Eugene Bazarov <evbazarov@...>, in a post headlined "The
Making of a Godol, asks "....Are we really supposed to convince our
children that every godol was born a godol?"
	IMHO -- to mangle a slang-ism -- no way, Rav Jose.
	If we ourselves believe we *can't* be a godol (one who is
greatly versed in the Torah) because we weren't born "right", then we
probably *won't* be a godol because we'll study less. If we believe we
can become a godol by trying harder, we will try somewhat harder. Same
goes double for the attitude we impart to our children.
	Please, don't anyone think I'm unaware that Torah must be
studied leeshma, for its own sake, and not for such gain as, say, being
considered an authority. I'm not speaking de jure: I'm talking about de
facto. And the fact is  we can't factor out human nature. It is very
normal to want other people to Respect you (with a capital R).
	(Of course, being a godol is not something one confers upon
oneself. It is a consensus judgment...)

Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi

From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:52:12 -0500
Subject: The Making of a Godol

> From: Eugene Bazarov <evbazarov@...>
> I recently purchased this book for my teenage son who loves reading
> history and gedolim stories. I just heard that the book has been
> banned. Is it my obligation to take this book away from him while he is
> in middle of it? Should I tell him that it has lies in it? Are we really
> supposed to convince our children that every godol was born a godol?

There is a lot less to this supposed issure than meets the eye. The main
source allegedly was Rav Elyashiv, who has publicly declared that he did
not sign the proclamation publicized in his name. I have read the
American proclamation, and the signatures look like copys. In addition,
I can not believe that some of the Rabbonim whos names are on it signed,
such as the Fienstiens.

From: Lawrence Kaplan <lawrence.kaplan@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:54:53 -0500
Subject: The Making of a Godol

 I find this fascinatng. What is the name of the book? Who banned it and
why was it banned?  Bazarov asks whether he should tell his son that the
book was banned because it has lies in it.  But perhaps it was banned
because it doesn't contain any lies!

On this whole subject, see Rabbi J.J. Schacter's article, "Facing the
Truths of History" in The Torah UMadda Journal, volume 8.

Lawrence Kaplan
McGill University

From: Deborah Wenger <dwenger@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:12:09 -0500 
Subject: RE: The Making of a Godol

My first question is, WHO "banned" this book and what right do they have
to do so? What right does anyone have to dictate what you can or cannot
read? I find this quite disturbing.

That being said, have you read the book? Is there anything in it that
you yourself find objectionable? If so, then maybe you should tell that
to your son and tell him why you think he shouldn't be reading the
book. If not, then discuss with him why others feel that way. In either
case, it's a good opportunity to discuss censorship and what is "proper"
reading material with your son.

Kol tuv,


From: Eliezer Wenger <ewenger@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:19:38 -0500
Subject: Re: New York Times article about the Orthodox farmer

The following was quoted (??) from the New York Times article about the
Orthodox farmer:
 > (Cows will be milked by gentiles on Saturdays because the Talmud forbids
Jews from milking on the Sabbath, but the Lubavitchers do not want unmilked
cows to be in pain.)<

I think this statement needs clarification and at the same time I will
attempt to answer Ed Greenberg's question as to what happens if there
are no Jews available.

Milking cows on Shabbos is a subcategory of the fifth Melacha (Forbidden
labors of Shabbos) called Dash (Threshing). Milking is considered
"mefarek."  However, due to Tzaar Baalei Chaim (causing paing to
animals), and this concern is not limited to Lubavitchers as the article
seems to imply, it is a concern of the Rabbis, since it is forbidden
Halachically to cause pain to animals and not milking cows for 24 hours
in undue pain, there are a number of options.

Although Rabbi David Ribiat in his The 39 Melochos page 357 refrains
from offering solutions, Rabbi Shimon Eider in his Halachos of Shabbos
page 110 and Rabbi Eliahu Falk in Volume 1 of Zachor Veshamor page 22 on
the section of Dash do offer three possibilities.

The first possibility is to have the milking done through a non-Jew. The
milk will be permitted to the Jews after Shabbos. A Jew is even
permitted to be present at the milking in order to render it Chalav

If there is no non-Jew available there are two options. One option is
for the Jew to milk the cow with the milk going to waste, either milking
directly over the ground or drain, or by milking it into something which
will cause the milk to be spoiled, such as putting detergent into the
receiving recepticle. It makes no difference if he milks by hand or uses
an electric milking machine which is turned on my a time clock.

A second option involves the Jews causing the milking to happen, but
does not do the milking himself. This is acheived by attaching the
suckers of an electric milking machine to the udders a short while
before the milking machine will be turned on by a time clock which has
been pre-set.  In this case the milk would be permitted to be used after
Shabbos. Attaching the suckers to the udders after the machine has
started is forbidden.

Eliezer Wenger


From: Jack Wechsler <wechsler@...>
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:47:31 +0200
Subject: The Orthodox farmer

Ed Greenberg wrote "How does one avoid animal abuse while maintaining
the shabbat? I assume that one may FEED one's animals?"

As a member of a religious kibbutz in Israel and having worked with cows
for over five years before giving it up I can answer your question very
easily . Most milking cows in Israel (if not in the world ?) are a
strain of the Fresian cow . The strain has been developed over many
years to produce large quantities of milk and depending on the type of
feed and climate as high as possible milk fat content. The actual
amounts depend on many factors e.g. heifer or cow ,feedstuff,number of
births,time after birth etc. but as a rough guide 30 litres a day 3-4%
milk fat . You can imagine that a cow that is not milked on shabbat and
produces that amount of milk is in terrible pain (Tzar Baale Chaim)
.Even a few hours delay causes distress. Our refet has over 450 cows
being milked 3 times a day ,thus even one day of milk represents a huge
amount of milk (~15,000litres) .i.e. not milking on shabbat means a
large loss of income --hefsed merube.

These are the two major reasons for the Chazon Ish z"tl allowing Israeli
farms to milk on shabbat in the early years of Israel's existence. Over
the years the milking systems have become more sophisticated and without
going into too many details a number of halachic problems have been
overcome with the assistance of Machon Tzomet from Alon Shvut .Harav
Yisroel Rozen and Harav Uri Dasberg in particular are experts in the

In a nutshell the milking parlour starts milking at a specific time with
a time switch and uses pneumatic switches ,automatic milk
sensors,compressed air to open and close doors and gates.The first few
cc.'s of milk go to waste before the milk is automatically transferred
to the refrigeration tank.The cow itself wears an electronic foot band
that as soon as the cow enters the parlour she is recognized by the
computer farm control management system .The amount of milk she gives is
measured automatically it's conductivity and a number of other factors
as well.Believe you me it's quite a technological headache .A large
number of milking parlours have come to the conclusion that because of
the complexety of the systems and the problems of shabbat they have at
least one non-jew on the permanent staff and at each milking .We used to
pride ourselves that we did not use goyim for milking on shabbat .But as
soon as we doubled the number of cows being milked we could not run the
risk of breakdowns that could ( and do ) occur on shabbat.

As far as the food side of it is concerned ,a double portion for the day
is doled out on Friday .All that is needed is to move the feed closer to
the cowshed on shabbat .Whilst this is quite a hard physical task it
does not constitute a halachic melacha and is permitted.A number of
rabbi's also permit the non-jew to drive the tractor that moves the feed
closer on shabbat if he\she does it on their own free will.  I would
just like to add that we have to remember the 2nd paragraph of Shema-"ve
natata esev livhemtecha" and only then us " ve achalta ve savata"

Jack Wechsler


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 02:33:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Touching Muktzah

>(how many kids are taught that they can't TOUCH muktzah!), etc.

You can touch muktzah?


End of Volume 37 Issue 88