Volume 37 Number 98
                 Produced: Thu Dec 12  6:34:52 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Advice on Growing an Esrog Tree
         [Vicky Kennard]
Fax machine on Shabbat
         [Ezriel Krumbein]
hanukkah games
         [Danny Skaist]
The Making of a Godol
         [Yehuda Landy]
         [Barry Best]
The Orthodox farmer
         [Jack Wechsler]
Sons, si. Servants, no
Theological Significance of Shabbat?
         [Gil Student]
         [Ari Kahn]
Veshakhanti Betokham (2)
         [Zev Sero, David and Toby Curwin]


From: Vicky Kennard <Vicky@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:18:29 -0000
Subject: Advice on Growing an Esrog Tree

We planted some esrog seeds after Sukkos and to our great surprise we
have five shoots. They are all in one pot in a cold hallway (this is
Manchester, north England). My kids are already calculating how much we
will make when we sell all the esrogim!! How can I make their dreams
come true?

Any tips on esrog growing would be welcome.

Vicky Kennard


From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:18:28 -0800
Subject: Re: Fax machine on Shabbat

>From: Raphi Cohen <raphi@...>
>>Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...> writes:
>> He used to read the fax without touching it
>What about "issur nolad" ? Am I missing something here?

The Mishna Berurah in siman 308 sif 1 sif katan 2 says that blank paper
is muktza because of chisaron kis. Meaning since you would not use it
for anything other than writing.  Since the fax paper was blank bin
hashmashos, it became muktzah for all of Shabbos.

Kol Tov

[However, since he does not move / touch the paper, why would the fact
that it is be muktzah relevant? Avi/Mod ]


From: Danny Skaist <danny@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:34:19 +0200
Subject: hanukkah games

> By the way, this seems an appropriate way to end Hanukkah, as there
> is a known tradition of playing games on Hanukkah, and this is certainly
> a more elevating pastime than playing cards or even dreidl.
>    Yehonatan Chipman

It is not the playing of games, but the gambling that is the Hanukkah
tradition.  When people gathered to learn torah, an illegal practice
during the Greek occupation, a goup of men sitting around in a circle was
suspicious so they  pretended to gamble to put off the authorities.


From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:11:34 +0200
Subject: re: The Making of a Godol

> From: c. halevi <c.halevi@...>
>  Eugene Bazarov <evbazarov@...>, in a post headlined "The
> Making of a Godol, asks "....Are we really supposed to convince our
> children that every godol was born a godol?"
>  IMHO -- to mangle a slang-ism -- no way, Rav Jose.
>  If we ourselves believe we *can't* be a godol (one who is
> greatly versed in the Torah) because we weren't born "right", then we
> probably *won't* be a godol because we'll study less. If we believe we
> can become a godol by trying harder, we will try somewhat harder. Same
> goes double for the attitude we impart to our children.

I would say this. Definitely different people are born different levels
and have different abilities.  Say a person is born on level fifty and
another on level sixty, if they both climb ten levels the second one
will still be ten ahead, but when it comes to evaluating the
accomplishments they both have achieved climbing ten levels. Everyone is
obligated to climb spiritually as much as possible and if he does he can
have accomplished the same amount as the gadol did but this will not
necessarily make him the gadol hador.

	The Rambam says (I have to find the source) that every person
has the ability to be Moshe Rabbeinu. Obviously the Rambam was aware of
the possuk that states that no one in Israel will be like Moshe. The
point is if he uses his potential fully he will be like Moshe, but Moshe
started from a higher level and reached the highest level possible,
while anyone else will be starting from lower level.

	I hope I made myself clear.
			Yehuda Landy


From: Barry Best <barry.h.best@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:32:34 -0500
Subject: RE: Mikets/Vayigash

sam saal asks an interesting question about yaakov sending his sons and
not servants to egypt.  i have another question.  what does yosef mean
when he says (46:34) that every shepherd is an "abomination" for the

1. Just 6 veres later ( 47:6) Paroh suggests that if any of the brothers
are mighty, they should be assigned as officers over Paro's flocks; and

2. and about 10 verses after that (47:16 and 17) we read that the
Egyptians used their cattle to barter for food in the second phase of
the famine.


From: Jack Wechsler <wechsler@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:38:13 +0200
Subject: The Orthodox farmer

Bernard Raab in mail-jewish Vol. 37 #96 Digest asked for further
information "...please tell us how the actual extraction nozzles
(suckers?) get attached to the teets of the cow. Can this be done
automatically without manual manipulation? If not, can this be done by a
Jew or is this another job for the non-Jew? "

Also Eliezer Wenger in Vol. 37 #88 Digest wrote " This is acheived by
attaching the suckers of an electric milking machine to the udders a
short while before the milking machine will be turned on by a time clock
which has been pre-set. In this case the milk would be permitted to be
used after Shabbos. Attaching the suckers to the udders after the
machine has started is forbidden."

>From what I have read about the Chazon Ish, this was his answer to the
problems of "chaliva b'mochana ". The whole idea of milking onto a stone
or detergent or blue colouring material in order to spoil the milk on
shabbat was used in the 1950's and 1960's when the kibbutzim and
moshavim had small herds ,some milked by hand even ,and those who used a
machine milked into separate churns for each cow(Alpha Laval equipment
usually).With the advent of larger herds and as result of the usage of
refrigerated tanks for raw milk storage all these idea's became
non-viable as a halachic answer for milking cows on shabbat.Moreover the
rabbinical authorities in particular Eda Charedis wanted to have "chalav
mehadrin" and pressed for a long time to have non-jews milking on
shabbat. Kibbutz Hadati was a forerunner in argueing for jews to milk on
shabbat because of 1) Ideological grounds 2) Security reasons (there was
even a murder in Kibbutz Ginnosar that was connected to the fact that
jews were milking )

All this plus the general feeling of "Israbluff" led to the present day
halachic solutions to the problem.Bernard has hit the nail directly on
the head with a sledgehammar.The main question about milking on shabbat
is how do you attach the modern day milking machine that works on vacuum
to the teats?

When we first started our refet in 1985 the system we used (which was
passed by the Eda Charedis as chalav mehadrin) was that the vacuum pumps
started by time switch (I'm sorry Eleizer you can't have a pump for each
machine the vacuum pump is central for all the machines)the person
milking pressed a pneumatic button which lowered the machines
suckers.The suckers were attached to the cow, the milk that flowed from
the cow went to a pipe that led to a large glass churn that eventually
when the cows were let free, flowed into the drain.(Chaliva Le' ebud as
it is called) Then the person pressed another pneumatic button that
allowed a pneumatic system run on the basis of "grama" which changed a
pneumatic tap in the milk line from the drain line to the line that runs
to the tank.(Chaliva Le'kav as it is called)

This system was used by us until 1989 when the system called "grama de
grama " was developed by Kibbutz Sde Eliyahu. This system rethinks the
whole basis of milking and works as follows-: The basic premis is that
in order to draw milk out of the udder there are in fact two types of
vacuum .1) A negative pressure that keeps the suckers attached to the
teats . 2) A pulsating vacuum that squeezes and releases the sucker
linings causing a simulation of a calf suckling the teat.

It is the second type that actually causes the release of milk. In very
simple terms in the Sde Eliyahu method the person presses a pneumatic
button that releases the machine which at this stage only has the first
type of vacuum.He\She attaches the suckers to the cow and then presses
the second pneumatic button.This causes a flow of compressed air through
a series of pneumatic valves together with two electric timers running
all the time make up the halachic "grama de grama" .this in turn opens a
pneumatic tap that connects the second pulsating vacuum.The person
milking does not in fact realize or know when this vacuum is switched
on.  In this way the rabbinical authorities felt that the original heter
from the Chazon Ish was being kept to.

However life as a religious jew is never so simple .Having instituted
this system in a number of places it was realized that there is another
problem .When the cows actually come into the parlour ,all the noise and
physical movements with getting the cow into place ,cleaning and drying
the udder,the smell of the after milking antiseptic etc.etc causes a few
cows to drop milk immediately when the machine is connected.After all is
said and done we rely on a hormonal release from the animals brain (what
there is of it). In order to get round this problem we added a new
system of chaliva le'ebud to each individual position.

As of today all our milk is taken to Jerusalem as chalav mehadrin being
milked by the system known as "grama de grama im chaliva le'ebud".  I
have not gone into the jew\non jew problem as I spoke about it before .
I did not intend to go into so much detail but since you asked I hope
this clarifies the question asked without too much technical confusion.
At least this way people will understand that milk comes from the cow
not from the supermarket. !!

Jack Wechsler 


From: c.halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:19:30 -0600
Subject: Sons, si. Servants, no

Shalom, All:

	I'm seeing some creative answers to the question of why Yakov
sent his sons to Egypt to buy food instead of sending servants, but I
haven't yet seen the obvious answer.
	If your extended family needed food to avoid starvation, would
*you* give cash to a servant, then send them to another country and hope
they didn't take the money and run?

Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:03:04 -0500
Subject: Theological Significance of Shabbat?

Rashi writes on Hullin 5a sv hai, "To this Tanna Shabbat is as strict as
idolatry for an idolator rejects G-d and a Shabbat violater rejects His
actions and testifies falsely that G-d did not rest in the act of

Belief in Creation as a fundamental of Judaism is implied in Rambam's
original formulation of the fourth principle and was later added by
Rambam into that principle (see R' Yosef Qafah's edition of Rambam's
Commentary to Sanhedrin 10:1).  It is also listed by many other rishonim
as a fundamental belief (see Menachem Kellner, Dogma in Medieval Jewish
Thought, ch. 10).

Gil Student


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:46:32 +0200
Subject: RE: Vayeshev

>From: David Waxman <yitz99@...>
>I have noticed a parallelism within the parsha of vayeshev.  The
>brothers pull off Yoseph's coat and then throw him in a pit.  The same
>sequence is repeated with eshet Potiphar.  She pulls off his coat, and
>then has him thrown into prison.  The prison is referred to more than
>once by Yoseph as a 'bor' (pit).

Regarding the use of clothes in Parshat Vayeshev, I once wrote an
article on this, see:


Ari Kahn


From: Zev Sero <zev.sero@...>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:41:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Veshakhanti Betokham

> "veshakhanti betoko lo neemar, ki im betokham."  That is, not in the
> Mikdash (which would take the singular pronoun, betokho), but within
> the Jews (plural).
> My question:   nothing of this sort appears in the Torah Temimah on
> this verse, nor in Shemot Rabbah or Pesikta Rabbati on the relevant
> verses.  Does anyone have any idea where this comes from?

Likutei Sichot vol 36, p128 gives the following citations:
Alshich on the pasuk, towards the end (dh "od yitachen");
Reshit Chochma, Shaar Haahava, near the beginning of chapter 6;
Shelah 69a, 201a, 325b, 326b; and in many places.

Yes, I know that's not what you're looking for.

Zev Sero

From: David and Toby Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 02:15:33 +0200
Subject: Re: Veshakhanti Betokham

Rav Kasher in his Torah Shleimah (Parshat Trumah, page 22, Siman 86*,
commentary) notes that this appears in "Sifrei Drush" from before 300
years ago as quoted from Chazal, but he can't find any sources. He notes
a number of authors mention this as their original thought, without
quoting a Midrash.

While the source might be out there somewhere, my guess is [that if] Rav
Kasher couldn't find it, it will be very hard to find.

David Curwin
Efrat, Israel


End of Volume 37 Issue 98