Volume 38 Number 16
                 Produced: Wed Dec 25 16:06:57 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Censorship and R. Kitov
         [Moshe & Channah Koppel]
Confiscating Items
         [Carl Singer]
Gemara Shiurim in Yiddish
         [Rivkah Blau]
Moshe and Pharaoh's court
Partners in Torah
         [Gershon Dubin]
PC history
Political Correctness
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Prophecies Coming True
         [Aron Rothman]
Sons, si. Servants, no
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Standing for Groom and Bride
         [Joel Rich]
Tzeddukah Obligations
         [Carl Singer]
         [Michael Kahn]


From: Moshe & Channah Koppel <koppel@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:05:31 +0000
Subject: Censorship and R. Kitov

I'm holding in my hand a booklet called Kivs(h)ei D'Rachmana which is
the Hebrew version from which the English chapters on Yom HaAtzmaut and
Yom Yerushalayim in Sefer HaTodaah were translated. It was put out by R.
Kitov's family in 1987. It includes fragments of a letter in which he
explains why he chose not to publish them in the Hebrew versions of
Sefer HaTodaah. The piece on YH was written as a teachers' manual
shortly after the War of Independence at the urging of R. Zalman
Sorotzkin who then advised not to publish it since it would be
divisive. Then when he was ready to put out Sefer HaTodaah he asked
various Rabbanim all of whom advised him not to publish it for the same
reason. He identifies the single exception who did encourage him as
R. S"A (Shlomo Auerbach?). R. Kitov mocks himself saying he listened to
them for "business" reasons. The decision to include the articles in the
English version was his own.



From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:45:24 EST
Subject: Re: Confiscating Items

      Next let us go to the Yeshiva class. The reason the student is in
      the class is NOT because of the teacher but rather because of a
      contractual agreement with the school: We pay money and they
      teach. To raise the pay without consent is not
      binding. Furthermore to state that BEING IN MY CLASSROOM IS
      IMPLICIT AGREEMENT TO CONFISCATION is false--the person is in the
      classroom because their father paid money!!!

This raises a few interesting points:

1 -- presuming the child is a katan -- then who really is the original
owner of the confiscated item -- say a tennis ball?  Is it the parent.
And is the agreement re: confiscation of contraband between the school
(or rebbe) and the parent -- both parties are capable of making

2 - there's a implication that the rebbe is taking the ball for his own
use / to profit or gain from same.  That's a most unlikely scenario.
The contraband is stored to be returned to the child or his parents at
some later date.

In an extensive, private, note that my wife (a former day school
principal and a current university education professor) notes as
policy she labeled all confiscated items and returned them to parents
(sometimes having to mail items at her own expense.)

There are legalities to be noted -- for example, the courts have ruled
that the desks, lockers, etc., are property of the school and thus
subject to search.

Kol Tov

Carl Singer


From: Rivkah Blau <y.blau@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:53:41 -0500
Subject: Gemara Shiurim in Yiddish

Lo mir lernen a blatt Gemara--from 1953-88 listeners to Daf Hashavua
enjoyed Rav Pinchas M. Teitz's gemara shiurim in Yiddish on the radio.
Tapes of 3 mesechtos--Makkos (begins January 3rd in Daf Yomi), Mo'ed
Kattan and Ta'anis--have just been transcribed from studio reel-to-reel
tapes to audiocassettes. To order, write to <daf@...>

Rivkah Blau


From: c.halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:58:53 -0600
Subject: RE: Moshe and Pharaoh's court

Shalom, All:

        When I noted that >>...since he was raised in Pharaoh's court
Moshe in all  likelihood did not know the Torah until God Himself taught
him.<<. Harlan Braude wrote that >>Moshe lived in Pharaoh's court, but he
was raised by his mother/father who clearly passed on to their son
whatever 'mesorah' they had (would that classify as Torah? <<
        All the Torah says is that Moshe's biological mother nursed him.
It is unlikely that a prince of Egypt (Moshe) would be taken to the home
of the wet-nurse. Rather, it is most probable she would have been brought
to the palace -- *without* Amram being present.
        Furthermore, Moshe had to have been weaned at about two years
old, and thus lost daily contact with his birth family. I agree with
Harlan that Moshe got a grounding in Jewish tradition, specifically a
Jewish heart, but there's no verse in the Torah that says a two-year-old
babe learned Torah -- and certainly not enough to make him a gadol
(sage), even though he was a prodigy.
        Harlan also wrote that >> in the encounter with the 'sneh'
[burning bush], when he hears the voice of the 'malach', the reaction of
'hineni' isn't translated literally as 'here I am', but rather 'I'm
ready!'. He needed no elaborate education at that point to recognize the
Creator of the universe.<<
        1. If *anyone* saw an angel and then heard the Divine Voice, how
could they not recognize the Creator of the universe?
        2. Also, Ramban says that when Moshe was told to not approach the
bush, it was because he wasn't yet holy enough. This shows he didn't know
the Torah then.

Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:03:26 GMT
Subject: Partners in Torah

Partners in Torah is looking for male and female mentors. Mentors study
Torah, specific material per mutual agreement, with a person with
limited Jewish studies background. 

Study is in person or on the telephone, approximately one hour weekly.
For telephone study, the program provides long distance service.

No experience necessary, very rewarding work.  For specifics, please
contact me off list.



From: <JoshHoff@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:07:10 EST
Subject: Re: PC history

Last night I had a look at the latest Magid book, and saw a small piece
on Rav Eliyauh Meir Bloch, explaining why he was always speaking against
Zionism, saying that it was part of being an 'ehrlicher yid.' The story
of Rav Elya Meir's participation in a Yom HaAtzmaut celebration in
Cleveland in the early 1950s is well known,and documented in Rav
Epstein's z'l's Mitzvas Ha Shalom, but either unknown to or ignored by
the author.A nephew of Rav Bloch zt'l told me that his uncle felt it was
wrong to speak against Zionism once the stat was created, because it
would only turn people against Torah. He said that we need to face
situations the way they are, and work within reality.  This Magid book,
with its obvious misrepresentation of Rav Bloch's opinions- certainly an
incomplete and very misleading representation- is now a runaway
bestseller.So with the banning of Making of A Gadol (and I have heard
that later editions of R.Epstein's book left out the info about R.Bloch)
and the populaity of this new book, are we creating a new version of
reality? Maybe we should put out a book entitled Echoes of 1984?


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:12:35 +0200
Subject: Re: Political Correctness

> >Besides listing R. Soloveitchik as head of the Bet Bet in Boston

What do the initials bet bet stand for?

[Probably meant to be Bet Din, sorry I missed that. Mod.]

> >He also makes a big deal over the spelling, in Hebrew, of Soolveitchik,
> >which I didn't really agree with.
>I believe that R. Hershel Schachter also makes a big deal out of the
>spelling of the name Soloveitchik, preferring the Yiddish version over
>the Hebrew.

Simple logic would suggest that we spell the Rav's name precisely the
way he spelled it, and not offer any of our own improvements.  That
having been said, how exactly did he spell it?



From: Aron Rothman <rothmanfamily@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:29:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Prophecies Coming True

If it were true that it's possible that a prophecy about good things
will not happen, than there is no way to test a prophet's
authenticity. that is because we know that a prophecy about bad does not
have happen if people do Teshuvah. Also doesn't this undermine the
belief in Moshiach.  

Yona Rothman


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahem@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:32:03 -0500
Subject: RE: Sons, si. Servants, no

>From: c.halevi <c.halevi@...>
>        2.  Joel Rich asked a different question: >>So why did Chazal in
>the medrash have Avraham tell him that he was bad and that his daughter
>was thus no good for a son of avraham?<<
>        To that I answer that a medrash in the form of expository
>aggadita is not halacha ("law"), the final word; just one sage's opinion,
>often at odds with other sages. (And not having seen that medrash, I can
>conjecture that its meaning is that only compared to Avraham and Rivka
>was Eliezer "bad," unworthy of continuing Avraham's lineage.)
>        If Eliezer was really bad, he would not have received so many
>verses detailing his proper conduct, at the same time getting no "bad
>press" in the Torah.

I should point out that the medrash in question does not say that
Eliezer was "bad".  It states that his lineage (from Cham via K'naan)
was "cursed".  Thus there was a flaw in his lineage that overrode his
good points.  That is why he was sent to Besuel, even though that family
was still worshipping idols (and Eliezer worshipped Hashem).  An analogy
can be made to a mamzer talmid chacham.  Even someone who is a mamzer
because of ten generations of descent still has the flaw which will be
passed down to his children.  In this case, Avraham stated that someone
who is "blessed" and will be passing on the blessing to his descendents
cannot merge with a lineage that is "cursed", even if the person who is
cursed would not deserve being cursed (as an initial curse).

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz - <sabbahem@...>


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:21:43 EST
Subject: Re: Standing for Groom and Bride

<< The one explanation that I have heard that makes sense, is that you
 stand up for someone who is doing an important mitzva.

 Proof of this: Why do you stand up by Vaverach Dovid (part of Shachris)?
 Rav Yaakov Kamentzky TZ"L explains that there was a custom (still
 practiced) to collect tzedoka during this time because of the line
 V'hosher V'hacoved Me'lifonecha (Wealth and honor come from You). We
 stand up in honor of the Gabbai Tzedokah (collector of the charity) who
 is performing an important mitzva

 Stuart Cohnen  <cohnen@...>   >>

2 questions

1. The minhag for giving tzedakah at that point IIRC is brought down by
the magen avraham based on the arizal(I'll check when I have sfarim
available) only after the primary approach of giving tzedaka before
davening.  How do we justify the interruption if we are not at that
level (and it is an interruption when someone walks around clanging the
box or peoiple push by you to get to it)

2. Why do we stay standing so long, iirc the minhag was when the kahal
said that pasuk

Joel Rich


From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:04:53 EST
Subject: Tzeddukah Obligations

I got a broadcast email from an acquaintance that there's someone in
town in danger of being evicted for lack of paying rent and that anyone
wishing to help could contact him (email sender) for particulars.

OK -- 1 - What is the halachik status of this request.
         2 - What if the email was directly from the person in need.
         3 -  What if the person in need was not from my town?

BTW -- The count so far this month for envelopes (tzedukah requests in
the mail) is 41 (about 2 per day.)

Kol Tov

Carl Singer


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:05:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Yeshivish

>The one thing I CAN'T STAND about Yeshivish is when people use the
>pronoun "by" for just about every other pronoun ("at", "with", "for",
>etc.)!  They even do it to non-Jews causing very puzzled reactions.

Yes, I'm guilty of that one. The most common example is "I'm eating by
so and so Shabbos." My dad pointed it out to me a long time ago. I
should be saying "at" I think, :-). It comes from the prevalence of "by"
in Yiddish.  On the other hand, I'm presently in college and writing
very fine term papers.


End of Volume 38 Issue 16