Volume 38 Number 27
                 Produced: Thu Jan  9 23:41:39 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Boat or Cruise Ship on Shabbat (3)
         [Gil Student, Mike Gerver, Yisrael and Batya Medad]
Jewish Parenting - Bergenfield Leil Iyun - Feb. 2
Minyan on airplane
         [Mike Gerver]
On a Boat on Shabbos
         [Frank Reiss]
Orthodoxy in a World of Social Change - Cedarhurst Leil Iyun -
Visiting Paris -- Need Some Assistance for Shabbat
         [Joseph V. Kaszynski]
Yom Kippor (5)
         [Yehuda Landy, Alex Heppenheimer, Dov Teichman, David I. Cohen,
Zev Sero]


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 17:40:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Boat or Cruise Ship on Shabbat

Rabbi Elan Adler wrote:
>I often receive questions regarding the permissibility of being on a
>boat or cruise ship on Shabbat. The questions are manifold, i.e.,
>may one be on a boat on shabbat while it is riding? Can one get
>off on shabbat? Get on on shabbat? Are there restrictions related
>to being on a ship on shabbat regarding carrying, etc.? Has anyone
>seen a comprehensive teshuva on this?

The Tzitz Eliezer wrote a book on this called "Shevisas HaYam" (it's in
the YU library).  The following teshuvos discuss whether one may be on a
boat on Shabbos, an important distinction being whether most of the crew
are Jewish or not.  Some of the teshuvos also discuss getting on and off
the boat on Shabbos.  I put an asterisk next to the most comprehensive

Iggeros Moshe OC 1:92; Minchas Yitzchak 2:106, 3:39; Tzitz Eliezer
*1:21, 5:7, 9:12, *19:19-20; Yechaveh Da'as *6:16.

Gil Student

From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:50:29 EST
Subject: Boat or Cruise Ship on Shabbat

Much of this is discussed in the Mishneh Brura, perek 248. You can ride
on a boat on Shabbat if the bottom of the boat is more than 10 tfachim
(about one meter) above the bottom of the water, because then you would
not be considered to be going outside the tachum. If you get on the boat
before shabbat, and establish the boat as your shvita (the place you are
staying for Shabbat), then there is no problem with the boat leaving
port on Shabbat.  Some authorities even allow getting on the boat Friday
afternoon, staying there until nightfall and making kiddush there, then
returning home to sleep and boarding the boat Shabbat morning before it

There is a problem with boarding a boat within three days before Shabbat
on an ocean voyage, since you would then likely be seasick and this
would ruin your oneg shabbat. But for a dvar mitzvah, this is
allowed. The only ocean cruise I ever took was to see a total eclipse of
the sun off the coast of Africa on June 30, 1973. I boarded the ship
about half an hour before Shabbat-- I'm not sure I would live so
dangerously now, but I was young then.  I didn't know at the time about
the issue of oneg shabbat, but if I had known, I think I might have
justified it as a dvar mitzvah. After all, it gave me an opportunity to
make a bracha, "oseh ma'aseh breishit," that I otherwise wouldn't have
been able to make.

I would think (and I remember learning, probably in halachot eruvei
tachumin of the Mishneh Brura) that carrying on a ship on Shabbat is not
a problem if everyone eats their meals in a common dining area, which is
usually the case on cruise ships. Even if that weren't the case, I
suppose you could make an eruv, as you could do in a hotel.

I know that in practice, people don't get off boats on Shabbat, if the
boat did not arrive in port before Shabbat. The Bostoner Rebbe once told
me that his father, the first Bostoner Rebbe, was on a boat that docked
in Haifa (or maybe Jaffa) on Shabbat, and he couldn't get off. The boat
was then headed for Beirut. I think the boat was delayed in leaving
until after Shabbat, so he was able to get off, and didn't end up in
Beirut. And I know that people who are forced to get off airplanes on
Shabbat (which would present the same halachic issue, since airplanes
are more than 10 tfachim above the ground) stay confined to the terminal
they are in until after Shabbat. I assume the reason is that at the
beginning of Shabbat, when the tachum of each person is established, the
boat or airplane did not have a tachum, since it was more than 10
tfachim above the ground (or bottom of the water). Someone in the city
where the boat docks, on the other hand, is allowed (for a dvar mitzvah,
if I am remembering this correctly) to go on board the boat on Shabbat
while it is in port, but not to leave on the boat on Shabbat, since the
ship is within the tachum of the city, even though the city is not
within the (non-existent) tachum of the boat.

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel

From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:29:34 +0200
Subject: Boat or Cruise Ship on Shabbat

We made aliya by boat, and it took almost two weeks from New York.  It's
a giant floating hotel.  There was a kosher kitchen and dining area.
Carrying on Shabbat was no problem.  Since drinking water was
restricted, we were told to use the minimum for nitilat yadiim.  On
Shabbat we couldn't leave, and docking at Haifa port was delaying until
Motzei Shabbat.



From: <torahweb@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:08:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Jewish Parenting - Bergenfield Leil Iyun - Feb. 2

The TorahWeb Foundation Proudly Presents......

Jewish Parenting: Obligations, Challenges, and Practical Application
Sunday, February 2, 2003

Location: Congregation Beth Abraham - 396 NewBridge Road, Bergenfield In
Conjunction With: Bnai Yeshurun, Keter Torah, Rinat Yisrael, and Tzemach

8:00 pm - Rabbi Herschel Schachter
8:45 pm - Rabbi Mordechai Willig

color flyer available at http://www.torahweb.org/yomIyun.pdf
audio from past yemei iyun is available at http://www.torahweb.org/audio


From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:02:00 EST
Subject: Minyan on airplane

Everyone discussing this topic has been talking about how difficult it
is to have kavana when davening in the back of an airplane. This is not
always the case. One of the most exhilirating occasions I ever davened
shacharit was in the back of a plane headed to Israel in Feb. 1998, when
I had not been to Israel for 27 years. I particularly liked it when the
shliach tzibbur began to say tachanun, and someone said that tachanun
shouldn't be said on the way to Israel, because people are happy to be
going home. That expressed my feelings exactly!  It would not have been
nearly as nice davening by myself in my seat.  Since that experience, I
have been disappointed to learn how unusual it was.

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Frank Reiss <freiss47@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:17:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: On a Boat on Shabbos

Can someone tell me the parameters of being on a boat that arrives at a
port on Shabbos (morning). Can you walk outside while not carrying


From: <torahweb@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:08:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Orthodoxy in a World of Social Change - Cedarhurst Leil Iyun -

The TorahWeb Foundation Proudly Presents....

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Sunday, February 9, 2003

Loaction: Young Israel of Lawrence Cedarhurst - corner of Broadway and
Spruce, Cedarhurst 
In Conjunction with: Congregation Beth Sholom and Young Israel of

8:00 pm - Rabbi Michael Rosensweig:
          The Hashkafic Framework of Social Change
8:45 pm - Rabbi Mayer Twersky:
          Absolute Truth & Alternate Life Styles

audio from past yemei iyun available at: http://www.torahweb.org/audio
color flyer available at: http://www.torahweb.org/yomIyun.pdf


From: Joseph V. Kaszynski <joe@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:08:00 -0600
Subject: Visiting Paris -- Need Some Assistance for Shabbat


I am hoping someone on this list may help. I will be in Paris next week
for business January 16-19. I am looking for a place to be for Shabbat.

Do you know how I might be able to get some assistance or hospitality?

Please let me know.


From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:40:34 +0200
Subject: Re: Yom Kippor

> Yom Kippor has always been observed for one day, because of the fasting.
> But, how did our ancestors in the Diaspora know which day? In those days
> Elul could have been a 29 or a 30 day month, so they would not know which
> day of Rosh Hashanh was the first day of Tisrei. Yom Kippor is the 10th
> day from which day of Rosh Hashanah, the first or the second? In Israel,
> what if they determined that Elul was a thirty month would they count
> from the second day of Rosh Hashanah? In the Diaspora they would not
> learn this in time.

This is an excellent question. It is however clear from many sources
that they did not fast for two days. Otherwise the Jews in Chutz
l'ooretz would nowdays also be obligated to fast for both days.

	The one explanation I've seen is that the Gemora in Rosh Hahsnah
(19b) states that from the days of Ezra and on we have not had a thirty
day month of Elul. The Jews of chutz lo'oretz relied on this "rov"
(following the majority of the years) abd thus were not bound to fast
for two days.

Yehuda Landy

From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 07:35:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Yom Kippor

The Gemara (Rosh HaShanah 19b) observes that since the days of Ezra (at
the beginning of the second Beit HaMikdash era), we never find a case
where Elul was 30 days long. So the people outside of Eretz Yisrael
could assume, based on past precedent, that Yom Kippur would be 39 days
from the beginning of Elul. (They would keep two days of Rosh HaShanah,
to be on the safe side; these would be called the 1st and 2nd of
Tishrei, just as we do nowadays, and Yom Kippur would be on the 10th of
the month. If it happened that the Sanhedrin declared Elul to be a
30-day month, then Rosh HaShanah would be the 30th of Elul and the 1st
of Tishrei, and in that case Yom Kippur would be the 40th day from the
beginning of Elul.)

That said, the Gemara (ibid. 21a) does mention some cases where it
turned out that Elul was made 30 days long, making Yom Kippur a day
later. (I don't know how this would square with the above statement
about Elul never being 30 days; probably some of the commentaries deal
with this question, but I don't know any.) If the Diaspora communities
received official word of this in time (from someone who had actually
heard the Sanhedrin's declaration), then they would indeed have to keep
a second day of Yom Kippur that year.

Kol tuv,

From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:59:37 EST
Subject: Yom Kippor

see Shulchan Aruch at the end of the laws of Yom Kippur the Ramo mentions
the custom of fasting for 2 days for the reason you mention (sfeika

Dov Teichman

From: <bdcohen@...> (David I. Cohen)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:23:49 -0500
Subject: Yom Kippor

Although theoretically Ellul could be 29 or 30 days, it was always the
same length, and therefore, the people in galut always actually knew the
correct day for Yom Kippur.

The better question is why keep 2 days for the other holidays,
especially Shemini Atseret and Shavuot (always 50 days from 2nd day of
Pesach). Most answer that it is a "lo plug" (don't make distinctions
between the holidays), which was overridden by the fasting aspects of
Yom Kippur.

David I. Cohen

From: Zev Sero <Zev.Sero@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:49:54 -0700 
Subject: Re: Yom Kippor

They didn't, obviously.  But they had a very good idea - the gemara
tells us (Beitza 6a) that from the two-day Rosh Hashana mentioned in the
book of Ezra, until the days of Rav, it never happened that Elul had 30
days, and even afterwards it was very rare for such a thing to happen.
So the people in Bavel had good reason to assume that Elul was 29 days,
and to act on that assumption.  So they fasted on the first day, and
every once in a while they would find out afterwards that they fasted on
Erev Yom Kippur and ate on Yom Kippur.

In fact, there were places where the messengers arrived in one village
in the middle of what they were keeping as Yom Kippur, in time to tell
them that it was really Erev Yom Kippur and they should eat something,
so that they could fast on the next day, but there was another village,
within the techum shabbat, that the messengers did not get to on time,
and that second village continued to fast on the first day, and ate on
the second.  Then, on the real Yom Kippur, when people from the first
village would stroll over to the second village between musaf and
mincha, they would find the people there busy building their sukkot, and
would comment on how sweet the food of Yom Kippur smelled!  But even
then the people of the second village would not have to start fasting,
unless they heard the news directly from someone who had been present at
the Bet Din Hagadol and heard with his own ears the proclamation of Rosh
Chodesh Tishri on the second day.  (See Rosh Hashana 21a, and Tosafot

Zev Sero


End of Volume 38 Issue 27