Volume 39 Number 07
                 Produced: Sun Apr 27  6:39:07 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Candle Lighting when away from Home (6)
         [Gershon Dubin, Ezriel Krumbein, Shayna Kravetz, Jeanette
Friedman, Anonymous, Tzadik Vanderhoof]
Davening Speed and Halachah
         [Yehonatan and Randy Chipman]
Five megilot
         [Michael Poppers]
The Jewish Observer
         [Eugene Bazarov]
Modern Orthodox Educational History
         [Amitai Bin-Nun]
"Open Orthodoxy": A Request
         [Bill Bernstein]
Pesach Shiurim
         [Saul Newman]


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:09:21 -0400
Subject: Candle Lighting when away from Home

From: Anonymous
<<So, the answer would be to go to a local shul and ask if you can light
there, right? >>

No, the purpose of lighting Shabbos candles is to have light where you
live, mostly where you eat, also where you sleep.  Lighting them in a
local shul is useless in that regard and a beracha levatala.

<<I've taken a set of candlesticks with me on my recent travels, but have
not been able to use them as a result of these restrictions. What is one
to do? Is there any way to fulfill the mitzvah without actual flames? >>

Get yourself an electric candlestick; alternatively open the lights that
you choose to leave on for Shabbos just before Shabbos with the intent
of doing the mitzva.

As to whether to make the beracha on electric light, CYLOR, there are
legitimate differences of opinion, but it isn't open and shut (as for
Chanuka, for instance).


From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 23:48:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Candle Lighting when away from Home

>I've taken a set of candlesticks with me on my recent travels, but have
>not been able to use them as a result of these restrictions. What is one
>to do? Is there any way to fulfill the mitzvah without actual flames?

In Shmiras Shabbos KiHilchosa volume 2 chapter 43 section 4 Rav Neuwirth
says that one who light using electric lights has on whom to rely.  Even
though in the main text Rav Neuwirth says on may make a beracha on
electric lights, in footnote 22 he quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach
that to make a bracha one should use battery operated lights so that the
electricity is already there when the blessing is made.

Later in chapter 43 section 32 he states that even when lighting candles
for Shabbos, one should have in mind when turning on other lights that
you are turning them on for Kovod (the honor of) Shabbos.

There is no mention there that the light bulbs need to be incandescent
bulbs.  I am not sure if it will make a difference for Shabbos candles.
I know that the Rabbi of my shul does require incandescent bulbs for
havdala. But there the bracha is on eish whereas on Shabbos it is on

Kol Tov

From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 23:51:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Candle Lighting when away from Home

Anonymous raises an interesting problem as regards candle lighting.
>Most hotel rooms now have official policies prohibiting the lighting of
>flames in the room or anywhere within the building. Many of these are
>meant to obey fire codes and laws which are rightfully concerned about
>fires occuring in the building.

As I understand it, since incandescent electric light bulbs are
considered aish, it is permissible to bench licht on them. I have been
taught that, for example, if one is in hospital over shabbat (we should
all stay well!), then one may bentch licht that way, since flames are a
serious danger in light (pardon the pun) of the presence of pure
oxygen. Note that fluorescent bulbs are not within this ruling, as I
understand it.

On a more practical level, ask a hotel if they have "smoking" or
"non-smoking" rooms. Then, get a "smoking" room. Ipso facto, these rooms
do not have the kind of sensitive smoke detectors found elsewhere and I
have successfully lit candles without setting off alarms (literal or
metaphorical!) in such rooms. The telltale clue is usually the presence
of ashtrays in the room. Of course, the downside here is that you are
stuck in a smoker's room, with all that entails -- other smokers on the
same floor, smoky-smelling residue in carpets, curtains, and bed linens.
So, you may have to ask yourself how much oneg shabbat you'll be able to
have there.

Kol Tuv.

From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 05:12:26 EDT
Subject: Re: Candle Lighting when away from Home

Women delivering in hospitals have the same restriction, and the bikur
cholim ladies give them electric candle sticks.

jeanette friedman

From: Anonymous
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:02:00 EDT
Subject: Re: Candle Lighting when away from Home

If you must travel over Shabbos -- and if you found the local shule,
then perhaps you can find a local home that will (a) allow you to light
candles and (b) invite you to join them for Shabbos meal.

If your only option is to light in the hotel -- speak w/ management
ahead of time -- three alternatives are (a) lighting them in their
kitchen -- atop a sink and (b) lighting at the front desk -- I know,
much to my surprise, when I was in a Marriott over Chanukah one year,
THEY lit candles at their front desk, (c) putting the problem on their
shoulders -- tell them your requirements and see how they can creatively
be of service -- it is the hospitality industry.  I would suggest using
the small "tea lights" -- the disposable candles.


From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
Subject: Re: Candle Lighting when away from Home

>Is there any way to fulfill the mitzvah without actual flames?

I can think of 2 ways:

1) Ask a family in the area to have you in mind when they light,
preferably one that is davening at the same minyan as you do, especially
when Shabbos is taken in early.

2) Use an electric light instead of a candle.  A battery-operated light,
such as a flashlight or penlight is preferable to a light that operates
from household current, because its limited supply of "fuel", all of
which is present at the time of lighting, makes it similar to a
candle. However, I believe a regular electric light is also permissable.

By the way, the solution you mentioned of lighting in the shul is 
problematic, even if the shul allows it, unless someone (preferably you) 
will be eating the evening meal in the shul.


From: Yehonatan and Randy Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:51:40 +0300
Subject: Re: Davening Speed and Halachah

In MJv39n01, A. Krinsky <adkrinsky@...> asked:

<< Is anyone aware of any halachah regarding davening speed and the
tzibur?  That is, can the Shaliach Tzibur drag the entire Tzibur with
him? ...  For example, what if the Shaliach gets to Yishtabach and only
three or four others are at the same point?  So, does anyone know what
the halachah is here (and where I can find the source), for any
obligation on the part of the Shaliach Tzibur to wait if enough of the
minyan is not with him?>>

   I'm intentionally not bringing the halakhah, because it seems to me
that this question really calls for what is called the "fifth part of
the Shulhan Arukh."  That is, one has to assume (maybe an incorrect
assumption) that people have a certain modicum of a) common sense; and
b) consideration for others.
     Not waiting for a substantial part of the tzibbur is simple
rudeness and inconsideration, whether it's technicaly kosher or not,
unless there's some very strong overriding consideration. (For example:
a certain minyan is set up around a core group of people who work in the
same place, and all of whom are dependent upon transportation that leaves
at a certain time.)
     Moreover, I feel that in general, in our generation most shuls are
sadly lacking in a real sense of concentration and devotion during
tefillah, of a feeling of avodah shebelav.  So many people rush through
tefillah at a pace where it's impossible for them to have minimum
kavvanah of perush hamilot, of the meaning of the words, that people
think this is the standard, and the way it should be. That's why waiting
for a Rav who davens more slowly than the others (discussed earlier in
the context of tirha detzibbura) is important;  not so much because of
kavod harav, but as a daily reminder and object lesson of how one can,
or should, daven.
     As for the specific example mentioned of saying Yishtabah when only
three or four people are up to that point:   strictly speaking,
halakhically, Pesukei de-Zimra is a private recitation, and not really
part of Tefillat ha-Tzibbur at all, which only begins with Hatzi Kaddish
and Barkhu (see Rambam, Tefillah - 9.1).   But again, if there is a Shatz for
PZ, which there is in most places, he should show some consideration for
others.  The problem is that in most shuls, people drift in during PZ,
and one can't reasonably expect the Shatz to wait for all of the
latecomers to catch up.  It's best if there's a covert understanding,
acceptable to all, that Barkhu is, say, 15 (or 18, or 20) minutes after
the beginning of Berakhot.
    Yehonatan Chipman


From: <MPoppers@...> (Michael Poppers)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:34:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Five megilot

In mail-jewish Vol. 38 #95 Digest, YChipman wrote:
> In Hasidic batei midrash to this day, the megillot of the three regalim
are often read quietly and quickly by each person from his own
Humash (in the same way they often do the haftarah). <

Such is also done in K'hal Adath Jeshurun, a/k/a/ "Breuer's," presumably
following minhag Frankfurt.

> In Israel, and specifically Yerushalayim, the custom of reading the other
megillot (in some places including Eikha!) from a scroll with a
brakha, is attributed to the "Perushim"-- the disciples of the Gaon of
Vilna who established the Ashkenazic customs in Jerusalem. <

In my Elizabeth, NJ community, the shalosh-r'galim m'gillos are read from
parchment without a b'rachah.

All the best from
Michael Poppers


From: Eugene Bazarov <evbazarov@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:42:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Jewish Observer

The April 2003 edition of The Jewish Observer had an article by Rabbi Avi
Shafran, the Director of Public Affairs of Agudath Israel. The title was
"The New Yet Familiar Face of Secular Zionism". The article shows that
Agudath Israel is still fighting old battles. There were two paragraphs
that caught my eye.

"But wasn't a Jewish movement aimed at bringing Jews together in their
ancestral land, the land promised us by Hakadosh Baruch Hu, at least a
step in the right direction?

"There were those, of course, who in fact saw it precisely that way, and
still do. They call themselves Religious Zionists and choose to view the
Zionist endeavor as a fulfillment not of Theodore Herzel's dream, but of
the prophecies of the Nevi'im."

Perhaps I am reading too much into this but... "The call themselves
Religious Zionists". Why not simply say, "They are religious

I would write this letter to the editor of The Jewish Observer, but in
the interests of intellectual honesty, they do not publish letters
critical of their articles.

E.V. Bazarov


From: <binnun@...> (Amitai Bin-Nun)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 23:04:05 -0400
Subject: Modern Orthodox Educational History

      I'm doing some research on the founding attitudes Modern Orthodox
educational institutions in light of the general attiude of Eastern
European immigrants to Halacha And Modernity (or HAM for short). How did
the community reconcile- or did they not feel the need to- the founding
of schools such as Flatbush and Shulamith with the traditional European
model of education? Did any sort of precedent exist (I am aware of
Yavneh in Lithuania- the precursor of Shulamith, but I would like to
know if anyone knows of any literature on the subject). Did the
immigrants view co-education and modern pedagogy as "American"
vs. "European" as opposed to "Traditional vs.  non-Traditional"? Does
anyone know of any literature about the founding of these institutions
(or any other pre-1960 MO institutions- Ramaz is not included as it is
the heir of the German tradition). Are early yearbooks and other
publications of this schools extant and accessible? I imagine YU and MTA
are relevant as far as this research is conerned. Thank you.

Amitai Bin-Nun


From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:50:20 -0500
Subject: "Open Orthodoxy": A Request

The Mail-Jewish posts on this topic have been very interesting of late.  One
of the nice things about this list is not only the broad spectrum of
viewpoints represented but also the generally high level of Jewish education
that posters exhibit.
I get the sense that many on the list are unhappy with the general state of
Orthodoxy, not just in America but maybe other places as well.  I would
count myself among them.  I wonder whether we could have a decent discussion
of the causes of that dissatisfaction and maybe even some suggestions for
improvement.  It is a very sensitive topic, obviously, but discussion would
help me at any rate to get my bearings here.
  I would plead at the outset that anyone posting keep in mind that members
on this list are people dedicated to HaShem and His Torah first and foremost
and that what is said is said out of love for those things.  Given that I
think we could have such a discussion without rancor and sinah.
Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN


From: Saul Newman <Saul.Z.Newman@...>
Subject: Pesach Shiurim

are the published shiurim for matza marror that have been de rigeur for
so long universal? are there customs that lechatchila [or at least in
their family practice lema'aseh ] smaller shiurim?  certainly non
orthodox jews dont eat gargantuan portions.  my relatives have always
used much smaller amounts.  i am not sure if these are minhagime that
are due to non yeshivish background; or did in fact galicia or german or
other areas had a longstanding practice of 'kazayit' that doesnt
represent just halachic ignorance/apathy....


End of Volume 39 Issue 7