Volume 39 Number 09
                 Produced: Mon Apr 28  5:52:32 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Pants or Skirts?
         [Janet Rosenbaum]
Passover corn syrup???
         [David Charlap]
Pesach Shiurim
         [Batya Medad]
Shabbat Candles away from Home
         [Ed Greenberg]
Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha]
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
         [Frank Silbermann]
Women and editing of Torah Works
         [Ben Z. Katz]
Women learning Torah
         [Janice Gelb]


From: Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:20:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Pants or Skirts?

Joseph Mosseri <joseph.mosseri@...> writes:
> This is a series of questions that pertains to the issue of women's
> clothing.

See R Getsel Ellinson's _The Modest Way_ (originally in Hebrew as
Ha-Tznia Lechet).  This book is volume 2 of a three volume series, Women
and the Mitzvot, which gives source material from mishna to achronim on
different issues concerning women.  The tsnius volume is AFAIK the most
comprehensive of any secondary source on the subject particularly
because he cites contemporary poskim from across the spectrum.

There are many individual tshuvot.  One on pants that sticks out in my
head is R Bleich's in _Comtemporary Halachic Issues_, although I don't
remember which volume.  Since tsniut is such a touchy issue, I think
that there's a lot which is only said orally.

My impression from having read and discussed the issue extensively is
that tsniut is subject to the same tension as many areas of halacha: by
the letter of the law, it seems that quite a lot could theoretically be
permitted, but rulings are conservative for from the desire to preserve
a certain type of society.

All rabbis that I know of who permit pants have qualified the permission
by saying that they wish they could asur them.

Tangentially, I want to point everyone's attention to a new anthology on
women's hair covering, _Hide and Seek_ by Lynne Schreiber.  In
particular, she includes an essay by Erica Brown which makes a point
that I have never seen before in print: women have many concerns about
covering their heads which are unaddressed by poskim.  While some of
these concerns have more halachic status than others, it is important
that women's concerns be addressed.



From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:59:36 -0400
Subject: Passover corn syrup???

On the back of a box of Joyva candies (marked "kosher for passover"),
corn syrup is clearly listed among the ingredients.  A disclaimer
paragraph states:

	Please note: Liquified legumous extracts, e.g. corn syrup,
	in kosher for Passover foods, are fully sanctioned for
	Ashkenazim and Sephardim alike by preeminent Orthodox
	Halachic authorities, including the renowned posek hador,
	R. Yitzchak Elchanon Spector, ztl.

On more occasions than I can remember, I was taught that derivatives of
kitniyot fall under the ban that prohibits kitniyot themselves.  Which
is we we insist on buying (for instance) specially-formulated bottles of
Coca Cola.

But now this paragraph implies that what I was taught is wrong.

My questios are:

- How common is the psak that permits kitniyot syrup?  It's obviously
   not the majority opinion, or I would expect to have heard of it by

- For those who hold by this opinion, does this mean that all products
   using kitniyot syrups can be considered kosher for Passover
   (assuming supervision to ensure that there isn't any chametz, of

(I am aware that the answer to the obvious third question of whether I 
can eat these boxes of Joyva candies on Passover will be CYLOR).

-- David


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:26:45 +0200
Subject: Re: Pesach Shiurim

      are the published shiurim for matza marror that have been de
      rigeur for so long universal? are there customs that lechatchila

When I first began becoming religious in the mid '60's these
measurements/quantities for the seder matzah were fairly new.  I was
taught that each participant had to eat the required amount, and it was
easy to measure from a factory matzah.  In FFB families, especially
those who ate hand shmurah, they seemed to be getting just pieces of
various sizes.  Just because something "is done" in a family doesn't
mean that there's halachik basis for it.  Because of my BT background I
always insist that everyone gets a full portion, including kids
approaching gil mitzvah.  The underage kids get the chipped and cracked
matzot.  This is relatively easy for us using machine matzah; in Israel
it's "just the right size."  If people are skimpy about giving a proper
kezayit because of the expense of the hand matzah, they may have a



From: Ed Greenberg <edg@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:59:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Shabbat Candles away from Home

> 2) Use an electric light instead of a candle.  A battery-operated light,
> such as a flashlight or penlight is preferable to a light that operates
> from household current, because its limited supply of "fuel", all of
> which is present at the time of lighting, makes it similar to a
> candle. However, I believe a regular electric light is also permissable.

We once had a Shabbat Candle get away from us in our RV, causing a small
fire, and I get really nervous about open flames in the trailer. I was
thinking of making up the following:

Two vertical "candlesticks", each with a 12 volt bulb, plugged into the
battery outlet of the trailer. The base would incorporate of one of
those spring-loaded four-hour wind-up timer switches.  (Somebody remind
me to pay my hyphen bill for this sentence)

My thought is that when my wife lights, she turns the switch around to
the maximum, covers her eyes, then makes the bracha, uncovers her eyes,
says "Good Shabbos" and gets kissed. (This is how it works, isn't it?
The kissing part, I mean.)

Some time later, the lights goes out. After we are asleep, I would

What to y'all think?


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:35:03 EDT
Subject: Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha]

Daniel Werlin (v39n02), Perets Mett (v39n04), and David Ziants (v39n06)
asked and discussed the issue of "Ulchaparat Pasha," that is, in what
months of the year, in Musaf Rosh Chodesh do we say Ulchaparat Pasha

Mishnah Berurah summarizes this issue by saying that there are those who
add this attribute to Musaf Rosh Chodesh and there are those who do not;
that among those who do add it, there are those who add it for the
entire leap year [that is all 12 months-since there is no Rosh Chodesh
Tishrei] and those who add it, do it only until and including the second
month of Adar. (MB 423:6)

The earliest Siddur to include "Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha]" is Seder Rav
Amram Gaon, and there is no mention there about saying it only on leap
years, and certainly no mentioning about saying it only for limited
number of months in a leap year. (Warsaw, 1865 [1st edition], p. 33)

The idea that it should be said only in leap years is related to the
number of attributes in this tefila. Since there are 12 attributes, and
the last one is the 13th Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha], somewhere along the
line, the idea came that there is a connection between the number of
attributes and the number of months, and hence since you add the second
Adar on a leap year, you should likewise add the 13th attribute only to
a year with a 13th month. A further development was to say this
attribute only until and including Rosh Chodesh Adar II. This last
development is problematic as if this idea is carried further, that is,
each attribute should be said only until the Rosh Chodesh of the related
attribute, then this tefila should have 11 attributes in Rosh Chodesh
MarCheshvan, 10 attributes in Rosh Chodesh Kislev and so forth and it
will never have 12 attributes as there is no Rosh Chodesh Tishrei to
announce. This is not done, and the Anaf Yoseph commentary (in Otzar
haTefilot) correctly states that "...there are variation that they add
"Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha]" in a leap year and I did not find it in
Abudarham and no where else, and these formulation 'Ulchaparat Pasha
[Pesha]' should be said all Rashei Chodashim all these 12
attributes.... ] however] and we say it in a leap year until the
[announcement of the] added month to teach [the congregation] that this
year is a leap year, and there is no longer relevant to announce it
after the second Adar"

According to siddur Ezor Eliyahu (note on p. 306) the Rokeach says that
these attributes are a special supplication for each month, and hence an
additional month (2nd Adar) requires an additional supplication.

Note that Siddur Rome (1964, p. 193) has different attributes: 1. Tovah,
2. Beracha, 3. Sasson, 4. Simcha, 5. Yeshu'ah, 6. Nechamah, 7. Parnasah,
8. Chalkalah, 9. Selichat Het, 10. Mechilat Avon, 11. Gemilut Hesed, 12.
Talmud Torah. There is no Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha]'. Another Italian
siddur, Seder Tefila LaSefaradim Meturgam Italkit (Formulario),
(Livorno, 1837, p. 340) has different attributes:1. Tovah, 2. Beracha,
3. Sasson, 4. Simcha, 5.  Yeshuah, 6. Nechamah, 7. Parnasah,
8. Chalkalah, 9. Mechilat Het, 10.  Selichat Avon; and there are only
10! There is no "Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha]" as even the 12 attributes
relate to 12 month is absent.

Another variation is in siddur Sefat Emet of Wolf Heidenheim, (one of
the most influential siddurim ever as it had over 150 editions!) it says
that generally people should add "Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha]" in a leap
year from Heshvan until Adar II, but that in Frankfurt a Mein
"Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha]" should be said ONLY once a year, on the
declaration of the second Adar. (152nd German edition, Rodelheim, 1928,
p. 209). The source for this last minhag was mentioned by Daniel Werlin
<<This is apparently recorded in the Shu"t of the Maharam Shik (I, Siman
184) and in Yosef Ometz (Seif 691), but I have not been able to check
them directly.>> I checked these two sources: Maharm Schick (OH 184)
holds that it would have been prefereed to have said "Ulchaparat Pasha
[Pesha]" all year round, but his minhag is to say it only until the
announcement of Adar II. Yoseph Ometz does list the minhag of Frankfurt
a Mein to say it only for the annoucement of Adar II.

Note: Siddur Tehilat Hashem (Lubavitch) has only 12 attributes and no
"Ulchaparat Pasha [Pesha]."

And lastly, none of the sources I checked suggest that the 12-13 months
cycle is Nisan to Adar. To the contrary, their suggestion to stop the
saying it after Adar II announcement has within it an implication of
Tishrei to Elul cycle. Otherwise, it would have been stated always that
you say it a full year, and there would not be two methods, one that
stop after the Adar II announcement, and one that goes all year. Maharam
Schick in the above teshuva discusses this issue and states that
according to the Talmud in Rosh Hashanah (12) Rosha HaShannah is
starting the counting of the years from Tishrei.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:25:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:  Vegetarianism

In V39 N06 Howard M. Berlin asks, "Can a Jew who is a vegetarian also be
an observant Jew? ... Can one have a seder plate without the shankbone?
(Even though one does not actually eat it)."

I'll leave it to others to answer the specific question about the seder
plate.  But in general I have heard that, while there is one opinion
saying that it is a mitzvah to eat meat on Shabbas unless you have a
medical need to refrain, another opinion holds that refraining from
eating meat is permitted even if you simply do not like the taste of

I suppose that it may even be permissible to refrain from eating meat
due to tenderheartedness towards animals or sqeamishness about taking
their lives.  (I've read that Rv. Kook -- who inspired religious zionism
-- was a vegetarian.)

What I'm pretty sure is NOT permitted is the opinion that eating kosher
meat is in any way sinful or unethical -- as this would be a grave
disrespect to all the great and pious meat-eating individuals past and

Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Lousiana


From: Ben Z. Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:44:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Women and editing of Torah Works

>From: <DTnLA@...>
>I just saw in a sefer that Maharshal writes in a Responsa (Siman 29)
>that "His grandmother the Rabanit Miriam ran a Yeshiva for a few years
>and with a veil/mechitza in front of her she would deliver Halacha
>shiurim to Bochrim"
>Also at the end of Masechta Nidah in the Frankfurt edition the printer
>gives credit to a single girl "gelah bas moshe" who did some of the
>typesetting on the shas.

along the same lines, rav Hutner's teshuvot were edited mainly by his
daughter (and, as an aside, the original typesetting for the Talmud by
Bomberg was done mainly by Christians - most of whom were Jewish converts)

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
Ph 773-880-4187, Fax 773-880-8226


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:06:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Women learning Torah

<Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich) wrote:

> Assuming no change, we also need to deal with those in both subgroups
> who don't meet "the norm" (i.e. is every man who can't learn oral law
> effectively a failure, is every woman who desires to do so losing a
> hope of a good shidduch?)  Obviously there's much to think about here
> in a halachik way outside of the usual "politics."

I think this is a hugely important point and one that is unfortunately
difficult to deal with when discussing general laws: the "nature" of men
and women is a comfortable construct to use when setting law, but as we
all know, people do not all necessarily fit into gender absolutes. And
people also do not fit into categories of circumstances either: what
about women who are divorced with no children, or whose children are
grown and whose husband approves of her learning?  What about men who
are less intellectually inclined married to women who are more
intellectually inclined? It would be nice if everyone followed the same
path and had the same inclinations, but human nature is not like that.

-- Janice


End of Volume 39 Issue 9