Volume 39 Number 11
                 Produced: Wed Apr 30  5:22:04 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

aylu vi'aylu deevray Elhoheem chayim
         [Moshe Schor]
Burning Chametz in Co-op City
         [Reuven Miller]
Dwarfs on Giants
Jerusalem Mehadrin
         [Paul Jayson]
Kosher Cheese Making
         [Jeffrey Saks]
More examples of Women Teaching/Paskaning
         [Russell J Hendel]
Observant Jews as vegetarians? (2)
         [Ezriel Krumbein, Gil Student]
Pesach Shiurim
         [Gil Student]
Rabbi Soleveitchik in WWII
         [Charlie Hafner]
Repurchase of Chometz - Notification
         [Rachel Swirsky]
Rosh Chodesh Benchen
         [Irwin Weiss]
Separation between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism
         [Martin D. Stern]
translating Shir haShirim
         [Shalom Carmy]
two dishes for the seder plate
         [Shlomo Pick]


From: <Moesch2@...> (Moshe Schor)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:00:07 EDT
Subject: Re: aylu vi'aylu deevray Elhoheem chayim

Regarding the interpretation of "aylu vi'aylu deevray Elhoheem chayim,
Ralph Zwier calls our attention to >>the odd expression "chayim" as a
description of G-d. (Elokim Chayim) .>> He then councludes >>My theory
is that chayyim is separated from Elokim by a comma. It is not a
descriptor of G-d at all. Chayyim here is not to be interpreted as
"living" but "raw" as in uncooked.So the expression means something like
this: "These and these are the words of G-d, in a pre-processed

Having done a search thru the Bar Ilan Cd, the expression is found in
the Tanach several times. See Devorim Chapter 5-verse 22,Samuel 1Chapter
17-verse 26 and 36,Jeremiah 10-verse 10,and Jeremiah 23-verse 36. It is
also found numerous times in Chazal and commentaries.

Moshe Schor


From: Reuven Miller <millerr@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:17:16 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Burning Chametz in Co-op City

> From: Richard Fiedler <richardfiedler@...>
> For those who might think that the prohibitions against real candles are
> arbitrary I feel compelled to relate a real and embarrassing actual
> event that happened to my wife and myself a few years ago at a hotel in
> London.Friday night my wife lit tea candles and a few hours later we
> awoke with fire alarms, afire in progress and shortly hotel staff
> banging on the door. We benched gomel next morning at the Marble Arch
> Synagogue.

reminds me of the time that I went to spend Pessach at my parents z"l in
CO-OP City in the Bronx.

There was no where to burn the chametz so I put so on the window sill,
open the window and burned it.

After returning from the Supermarket I found the street closed off by
the fire trucks called by our local goyish neighbor.



From: Jeff <jff@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:44:11 -0400
Subject: Dwarfs on Giants

> In tracking down the source of this quote, Shlomo Pick gives us Didacus
> Stella by Lucan, who was himself quoted in Robert Burton's Anatomy of
> Melancholy:
>       Pigmaei gigantum humeris impositi plusquam ipsi gigantes vident
> (Pigmies placed on the shoulders of giants see more than the giants
> themselves).
> The same quote turns up with variations in Jacula Prudentum by 17th C.
> British poet George Herbert and in Essay VIII of Samuel Taylor
> Coleridge's The Friend (according to my ancient and much battered copy
> of Bartlett's Familiar Quotations). 

A classic and very amusing book, "On the Shoulders of Giants," by the
sociologist Robert Merton, does a good job of tracking the source of
this quote, showing, among other things, that Bartlett's gets it
completely wrong. Didacus Stella is the Spanish theologian Diego de
Estella, who wrote a book on St. Luke.  If anyone can produce a work by
Lucan of the title Didacus Stella, the world awaits this revelation.



From: Paul Jayson <P.Jayson@...>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:50:28 +0100
Subject: Jerusalem Mehadrin

I have looked back in the archives and saw a good (and amusing) thread
on Kosher Mehadrin vs Kosher.

In practice, I am about to visit Jerusalem and would like to obtain a
list of restaurants which profess to be Mehadrin. I have looked
extensively on the 'net but this has alluded me. Also, if anyone has any
personal faves to recommend perhaps you could e mail me - off list.


Yitzhok  (<p.jayson@...>)


From: Jeffrey Saks <atid@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:48:30 +0200
Subject: Kosher Cheese Making

For cheese-making at home as a hobby:
If anyone can recommend a supplier of kosher cheese-making materials
(kosher rennet and the various enzymes or "starter cultures") I would
appreciate it.
Please contact off-list at <atid@...>


From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:36:21 -0400
Subject: More examples of Women Teaching/Paskaning

Ben Katz in v39n9 mentions a) women giving shiurim behind veils b) women
writing shas. I would just like to add 2 other examples.

c) Dr Nehama Leibowitz would also give shiurim behind veils (from what I
have heard)

d) Dr Yaffa Elyach points out in her review of certain towns where she
grew up that sometimes the Rebettzin would paskin most questions (like
dairy spoons falling into meat pots) so as to give her husband time to
study undisturbed (An amusing mirror of Modern Kollel activity) (I
believe this last point has been brought up by me in the past on
Mail-Jewish though it bears repetition)

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.com/


From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:25:11 -0700
Subject: Re:Observant Jews as vegetarians?

>From: Howard M. Berlin <berlin@...>
>Specifically, during Pesach on the seder plate there is a shank bone.
>Since vegetarians abstain from eating meat and their products, can one
>have a seder plate without the shankbone?

In the Mishna (Pesachim 10:3) it says one uses two cooked items where we
today have the zeroah and the beizah. In the talmud (Pesachim 114b) Rav
Huna says cooked beets and rice can be used for the two cooked items.
Rava used to specifically use cooked beets and rice since Rav Huna
mentioned them.  So meat would not be required.

Kol Tov

From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:07:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Observant Jews as vegetarians?

Dr. Howard M. Berlin wrote:
>Besides Peach, are there any situations where
>one is required to eat meat (beef chicken, etc.)?

Today, when we sadly have no sacrifices, there is never (to my
knowledge) an absolute obligation to eat meat. There are customs to eat
meat; there are times when we must eat tasty and enjoyable food, which
to many of us means meat. There is a puzzling opinion of the Rambam that
men are obligated to eat meat on Yom Tov but that is not accepted by
Shulchan Aruch (although some try to fulfill this opinion).

While vegetarians may be breaking certain customs they are not violating
(or failing to perform) other obligations. When sacrifices are
reinstated, however, they will have to (and certainly want to) eat
sacrificial meat like everyone else.

Gil Student


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:12:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Pesach Shiurim

>are the published shiurim for matza marror that have been de
>rigeur for so long universal? are there customs that lechatchila

While there are certainly disagreements about the exact shiur, and even
how precisely (or if) we need to measure them, no halachic authority
would suggest that one can fulfill the mitzvah of eating matzah with a
small bite.  And I have unfortunately seen many Jews who think that a
small bite is all that is required.

Gil Student


From: Charlie Hafner <chafner@...>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:49:05 -0400
Subject: Rabbi Soleveitchik in WWII

Does anyone have any information, anectodes, stories about the efforts
of YU, Reb Moshe or Reb Y.B. Soloveitchik(sp?) in Va'ad Hatzalah or any
other rescue efforts?



From: Rachel Swirsky <swirskyr@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:09:34 -0400
Subject: RE: Repurchase of Chometz - Notification

The Rabbi at our shul just announces after Maariv when the chametz will
be available.  (i.e., give me 20 minutes, then start cleaning up!)



From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:21:02 -0400
Subject: Rosh Chodesh Benchen

A friend asked me this in shul this past Shabbat: Why do we say
"Shetchadesh Alenu Et Ha Chodesh Ha Ze, instead of Hachodesh Haba?
Since we are offering a prayer for blessings for the New Month, why are
we not using future tense?



From: <MDSternM7@...> (Martin D. Stern)
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:27:04 EDT
Subject: Re: Separation between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism

    In mail-jewish Vol. 39 #08 Digest, Ben Z. Katz, M.D.  writes concerning 
the separation between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism:
    "As in all processes, it was gradual.  At least the first graduating 
smicha class from JTS (before Schechter arrived) is accepted by the Orthodox 
by and large as authentic and it contained the notable former chief rabbi of 
the british empire, Rabbi Dr. JH Hertz (of the Hertz chumash)"

    In response to Masorti (Conservative) attempts to claim to be the 
original ideology of Anglo-Jewry in the UK, I published an article "Masorti 
Revisionism Refuted: Reclaiming Chief Rabbi Hertz as an Orthodox Jew" in 
Le'ela vol. 39 (April 1995). In it I demonstrated how Conservatism diverged 
progressively from its origins as a westernised form of Orthodoxy, in 
reaction to the excesses of 19th century Reform, into a kind of kosher-style 
version of the latter which follows its trends subject to a few years' delay.

Martin D. Stern
7, Hanover Gardens, Salford M7 4FQ, England
( +44(1)61-740-2745
email <mdsternm7@...>


From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:49:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: translating Shir haShirim

> The non-intellectual approach to Yehadut is indeed as troubling as some
> of the trends on the "liberal" wing.  The idea that a popular siddur
> would not translate Shir ha shirim but would opt to run the commentary
> in lieu of the text is an insult to the text and all those who came
> before us.  This approach seems more like an act that would have been
> taken by the Church than by our people.
> What is next?  Changing the actual Hebrew text, so that it would conform
> with the commentary!
> While I as "amkha" welcome the beautiful typeset and eye friendly font
> of this new popular beautifully produced siddur, I find what has been
> done in the translation as an affront to the Jewish way.  Are we to be
> afraid of the pshat?  There is space allocated for commentary, why would
> it take the place of the text?  Are we uncomfortable with our own texts?
> Are we now the censors of the text?

There is an Aramaic translation of Shir haShirim that also omits the
literal translation of the words in Tanakh. In fact there are several
Aramaic translations of Torah and Nakh that do the same (Onkelos on
anthropomorphic terms in Humash; pseudo-Jonathan on prophetic parables).

We have had this Targum for close to 1500 years. It has not, as far as I
know, led to changing the Hebrew text.

Yes, indeed, the Catholic Church, like Hazal, and unlike some secularist
writers, understood Shir haShirim as a religious poem. To the best of my
knowledge the Church is not responsible for changing the Hebrew text

What is next? Claiming that the Targumim were written by Christians? Are
we now to sit Hazal on our knees and teach them how to be
"authentically" Jewish?

I am not certain whether the ArtScroll policy on the translation of Shir
haShirim is the best way of safeguarding the normative Jewish
understanding of the book. But if there is insult to Torah she-bi'Ktav
and to Torah she'be'al Peh, I don't think it can be blamed on their


From: Shlomo Pick <picksh@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:04:28 +0200
Subject: two dishes for the seder plate

concerning the vegetarian seder plate please note pesahim 114b:

"What are the two dishes?-Said R. Huna: Beet and rice. Raba used to be
particular for beet and rice, since it had [thus] issued from the mouth
of R. Huna. R. Ashi said: From R. Huna you may infer that none pay heed
to the following [ruling] of R. Johanan b. Nuri. For it was taught, R.
Johanan b. Nuri said: Rice is a species of corn and kareth is incurred
for [eating it in] its leavened state, and a man discharges his duty
with it on Passover. Hezekiah said: Even a fish and the egg on it. R.
Joseph said: Two kinds of meat are necessary, one in memory of the
Passover-offering and the second in memory of the hagigah. Rabina said:
Even a bone and [its] broth."

the first mentioned are vegetarian


End of Volume 39 Issue 11