Volume 39 Number 19
                 Produced: Fri May  9  5:55:32 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Drambuie Liquour
Is there a connection between Israel and Judaism
         [Mordechai Horowitz]
Lighting candles away from home
         [Louise Miller]
Making of a Gadol
         [Mark Steiner]
Miracles and Halacha
         [Yair Horowitz]
New article of interest re Halacha and Terrorism on www.Jlaw.com
         [I Kasdan]
Potato Starch
         [Danny Skaist]
Repurchase of Chometz - Notification
         [Jack Gross]
Requirement to Eat meat
         [Russell J Hendel]
Safek D'Rabbanan
         [Danny Skaist]
Sfira Beard on TV
         [Batya Medad]
Shir Hashirim
         [Shalom Ozarowski]
translating Shir Hashirim
         [Moshe Goldberg]
Two Reasons for Lighting Candles: HONOR vs INTIMACY
         [Russell J Hendel]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 05:37:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia

Hello all,

A couple of points related to the list.

First, if at all possible, do not include the entire m-j issue when you
submit something. That requires me to move your submission to a seperate
file to edit that out before piping it to the application I use to
generate the issue, which will add several days to when your posting is
likely to go out.

Second, while I fully understand when someone CC's the individual they
are responding to when they send something to the list, if the chain of
emails between the two parties goes beyond one or at most two
interchanges before it makes it on the list, I will most likely send a
copy of the exchange to the two parties and offer them to create
summaries for submission to the list. I will not in general include the
full conversation on the list.

In a case where it is not a single set of people, but rather one person
CC's several people and there is more than one person responding to
that, I will view myself as being an individual CC'ed person and not
view it as list material.

We currently have some topics that I think have value for the group to
discuss, but have the potential (or probably already have the potential
already moved to actual) to move to where I will not post it on the
list.  One topic in particular has to do with Orthodox vs
Conservative. The specific events that lead to the creation of
mail-jewish was the great Orthodox-Conservative-Reform (OCR) wars on
net.religion.jewish (now known as soc.culture.jewish) some 15 or more
years ago. I will not allow any form of that to start up. However, I do
think that many people on the list are not well informed about what the
early philosophy of the Conservative movement was, which is still held
by a number of Conservative Jews, as well as (I suspect) a number of our
list members. If it can be a discussion vs it being a "shouting match"
in a proper manner, I may consider allowing it to occur. I will think
about it during Shabbat.

OK, so now back to editing and sending out today's issue and then off to

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: SBA <sba@...>
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:55:46 +1000
Subject: Drambuie Liquour

The weekly newsletter of the Antwerp Chareidi Kehilla Machzikei Hadas
has a notice from their Bedatz saying that they have information from US
Kashrus organisations that there are chashoshes on the Kashrus of
Drambuie Liquour.



From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:36:33 -0400
Subject: Is there a connection between Israel and Judaism

MK Rabbi Avrohom Ravitz (UTJ) told Yated Ne'eman, "The [incident]
justifies our ideological position vis- a-vis the State of Israel, for
we do not see in it any tie to Judaism and Jewish identity."


Does anyone know if Rabbi Ravitz actually said this?


From: Louise Miller <daniel@...>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:32:55 -0700
Subject: Lighting candles away from home

The large houseware stores all have very cute and CHEAP tea light
holders.  I tend to forget to collect them after Shabbat, so cheap is
good.  It's also very nice for guests.  Since I live in earthquake
country, low to the counter top and sturdy is also very good.

Louise Miller
La Jolla, CA
(California has its faults...)


From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:45:10 +0200
Subject: Re: Making of a Gadol

Some additional comments:

(a) Since the Kamentezky family had nothing to do with uploading the
"Godol" book on the Internet, they have no information on what may be
missing from the text.  I find it difficult to use the downloaded
version and so didn't and don't intend to check myself what may be
missing.  In any case it only purports to be Volume I, part 1.

(b) I forgot to add the obvious point, to my story about Reb Yisroel
Salanter making kiddush in public during a cholera epidemic, that this
happened on Yom Kippur.  I suppose that all readers understood this.

(c) The correct name of Rav Soloveitchik's essay is "Uvikashtem Misham,"
not as I gave it.  I hope the English translation of this essay will
appear soon, as I helped with the translation.

I apologize for yet another emendation, but I see I made a serious error in
my posting about the "Godol" book:

I wrote:

 In "The Making of a Godol," there are many stories about Reb Aharon
Kotler z"l which are meant as negative stories in the second sense.

    I should have said "first sense" instead of "second sense"--i.e. there
are many stories about Reb Aharon whose only function seems to highlight his
faults of character.

    Finally, let me thank publicly all who send in maot hittim to Jerusalem
in response to my appeal.

Mark Steiner


From: <Ggntor@...> (Yair Horowitz)
Subject: Miracles and Halacha

What would be the din if eidim zomemim say that Reuven and Shimon could
not have witnessed an event in Israel at 2 pm because they were in NY at
1:30 pm and Reuven and Shimon respond that they transported al pi neis
to Israel?  Would Reuven and Shimon be huzmu or not? (Side note: Would
they need witnesses to back up their claim of being transported al pi

What if Reuven killed Shimon with eidim and hatra'ah (although I don't
believe it's even needed for murder) and, during the trial, Shimon walks
into court and confirms that Reuven killed him and he was just
resurrected?  Would Reuven be put to death or not?

Obviously these seem like silly cases, but a beit din has to look into
every possibility before executing someone.  Are batei din allowed to
take miracles into account and, if not, why not?

Yair Horowitz
[Question originally posed by R' Gil Student]


From: I Kasdan <Ikasdan@...>
Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 23:04:26 -0400
Subject: New article of interest re Halacha and Terrorism on www.Jlaw.com

See http://www.jlaw.com/new.html for: 

 "Does Ariel Sharon Consult His Rabbi?  How Israeli Responses To
Terrorism Are Justified Under Jewish Law" by David Rosen, Emory Law


From: Danny Skaist <danny@...>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:40:03 +0200 
Subject: Potato Starch

<<Yehonatan Chipman
 Since one explanation of the prohibition on kitniyot is that it might
be ground into a kind of flour, which could then be confused mixed up
with forbidden grain flour, this would obviously not apply to oils.  >>

But this would apply to potato starch.  Making potatoes kitniyot.



From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 07:38:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Repurchase of Chometz - Notification

> From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
>      From: Rachel Swirsky <swirskyr@...>
>      The Rabbi at our shul just announces after Maariv when the chametz
>      will be available.  (i.e., give me 20 minutes, then start cleaning
>      up!)
> The problem with this is that it presumes some future act will go off
> without a hitch.  What if, for example, the person who bought the
> chometz finds that their car won't start and thus doesn't show up for
> the repurchase.  One can paint countless scenarios where seller and
> buyer miss connections or are delayed.

 Or, more to the point, the buyer decides not to sell all the goods
back!  "It ain't over till it's over."


From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:51:04 -0400
Subject: RE: Requirement to Eat meat

Gil Student in v39n11 answers Dr Berlin about the requirements of meat

Gil is correct that there is no Biblical requirement of eating meat.

But the SA(Code of Jewish law) clearly states that we should eat meat on
Shabbath. My brother (a vegetarian) once asked me if vegetarians have
permission to abstain from meat.

I cited the SA which is very clear: IF you do NOT like meat (and that is
why you are a vegetarian) then of course you may. But if you would enjoy
the taste of meat and abstain because you dont want to kill animals then
there is no permissability.

(The SA states one should eat a) meat b) fish or c) goodies for oneg
shabbath(Shabbath Joy). So if one doesnt like meat one should eat fish)

There are vegetarians who abstain because it is "healthier" to eat a
vegetable diet.

I dont know if this gives them permission. They are not denying that
they enjoy meat. They are also not claiming discomfort from eating meat
(once or twice a week)). I dont know any medical justification for
extending the dietary advice not to gorge oneself on meat to not eating
on the Shabbath at all.

It seems to me that Judaism is often slandered for not encouraging man
to pursue pleasure. This is one of the few commandments (Eating meat on
Shabbath) that does so encourage. Hence I think it deserves serious

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.com/


From: Danny Skaist <danny@...>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:33:42 +0200 
Subject: Safek D'Rabbanan

<<     Yehonatan Chipman
  The Rav said that, in light of the fact that there were two
separate uncertainties involved in this issue:   an uncertainty as to
whether peanuts were considered kitniyot, and the dispute as to whether
the rule applied to oils altogether, a strong case could be made for
using peanut oil.  >>

There is a dispute about the minhag of derivatives of kitniot. This
translates to us as a safek.  Why is this not just considered a safek
d'rabbanan and permitted ?  Why hold that a safek in a minhag is the
same as a safek d'oraisoh ?

<<    Nevertheless, anyone deciding to be lenient on this question should
probably make a hatarat neder, a formal release from the "vow" implied
by this custom, which was accepted by his ancestors. >>

I know of many families that 3 or 4 generations ago never ate milk
products on pessach. (Because they didn't exist.)  Does this become an
"implied custom" requiring hatara ??



From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:50:13 +0200
Subject: Sfira Beard on TV

My husband (you know him) and tank corps son turned on a basketball game
on Israeli tv and just let out a shout of joy, not because of a great
play, but because one of the sportscasters has a fifteen-day-of-the-omer
sfira beard.  I address this to those who go by the psak that it's
permitted to shave during sfira, because it's not acceptable to be seen
"like that" in public.  Please note--this is a sports game, not the
weekly parshat shavua program.  Israeli tv is generally on such a low
moral and religious level that there isn't a local show I would watch.
The announcer's kippah is a light color and is easy to notice on his
head.  "Kol hakavod lo."  He's not trying to blend into the crowd.


ps Yes, this is Israel, but when I left America in 1970 the blacks were
starting to show "black pride," their ethnic pride, and we have a lot to


From: <Shalomoz@...> (Shalom Ozarowski)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:19:27 EDT
Subject: Shir Hashirim

animated discussions by mj posters related to jay schachter's points
about shir hashirim can be found in the thread spanning issues 36:50
through 36:91 or so.

For artscrolls point of view one can simply read their introduction in
the shir hashirim volume itself (esp. the "pshat and drash" section of
nosson scherman's overview), where they obviously anticipated much
criticism for their translation methodology etc.


From: Moshe Goldberg <mgold@...>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:21:14 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Re: translating Shir Hashirim

> From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
> There is an Aramaic translation of Shir haShirim that also omits the
> literal translation of the words in Tanakh.

Can you be more specific? Which Aramaic translation? Where can it be

Moshe Goldberg


From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:37:18 -0400
Subject: Two Reasons for Lighting Candles: HONOR vs INTIMACY

v39n7 contains half a dozen postings on lighting candles.

Just wanted to mention something relevant I heard from the Rav(Rabbi
Joseph Baer Soloveitchick)

The Rav pointed out that the Rambam in the Laws of Shabbath mentions
lighting candles twice---he mentions it in the last chapters where he
speaks about the obligation to HONOR the Sabbath. He also mentions it in
the early chapters where he explains that lighting candles is done so
that people should see what they are eating so that they dont have
disputes at the table.

So...the Rav continues, there are TWO REASONS for candles: a) There is a
reason of HOUSE PEACE and b) there is a reason of HONOR AND RESPECT.

The Rav relates that therefore, his wifes custom was as follows: First
she would turn on a chandellair (as this is a sign of HONOR AND RESPECT)
and then b) she would light the candles (As candles are more consistent
with intimacy and peace).

I think this is relevant to those who suggested lighting candles in the
Hotel Kitchen....there is a definite legal requirement to light at the
PLACE OF THE MEAL for the reason indicated.

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.com/


End of Volume 39 Issue 19