Volume 39 Number 24
Produced: Tue May 13 6:53:37 US/Eastern 2003
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
13 Ikarim are NOT Islamic influence but Jewish (2)
[Robert Rubinoff, Ben Katz]
Adam and Chava
[Tzadik Vanderhoof]
Adam and Chava's wedding
[Ezriel Krumbein]
Conservative and Orthodox Shuls in 1960's
[Batya Medad]
Kosher Goat's Cheese
[Zev Sero]
Observant Jews as vegetarians
[Frank Silbermann]
Pants or Skirts? (2)
[Frank Silbermann, Anonymous]
Pants or Skirts
[Esther Posen]
Potato Starch (2)
[Stephen Phillips, Shimon Lebowitz]
Rice at the Seder Plate
[Shlomo Pick]
Siddur Hageonim Vehamekubbalim by Rabbi Weinstock
[Martin D. Stern]
Size of Kezayis, Candles, Danger
[Gil Student]
Size of Kezayit
[David and Toby Curwin]
State of Israel: Jewish! Jewish?
[Yisrael Medad]
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From: Robert Rubinoff <rubinoff@...>
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 10:55:56 -0400
Subject: 13 Ikarim are NOT Islamic influence but Jewish
> I was shocked at Ben Katzs statement (v39n6) which seems to have gone
> undisputed. Ben claims that the 13 principles of faith came from islamic
> influence who have similar lists!?
No, the claim (which I have seen many times) is just that the idea of
producing a complete list of principles was based on Islamic influence.
All of the principles come from Jewish sources, of course!
> As for the act of collecting these principles in one place--- that too
> is not of Islamic influence but rather intrinsically Jewish. In fact the
> Talmud explains that the early sages were called COUNTERS (SOFRIM) since
> they would enumerate lists (eg 39 Sabbath labors; 4 torts; similarly 13
> principles of faith).
There were lots of lists, but not lists of religious principles (as far as I know)
in the Talmud.
Robert
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From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 13:39:35 -0500
Subject: Re: 13 Ikarim are NOT Islamic influence but Jewish
>From: Barak Greenfield, MD <docbjg@...>
>Which of the 13 ikarim are not of Jewish origin?
>
>From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
>I was shocked at Ben Katzs statement (v39n6) which seems to have gone
>undisputed. Ben claims that the 13 principles of faith came from islamic
>influence who have similar lists!?
Both Dr. Hendel and Mr. Greenfeld misunderstood my comment. Perhaps I
was not clear. I am not disputing the importance of any or all of these
ikarim. The fact is, however, that they are not universal. As has been
pointed out in the past on this list, the Raavad either did not believe
that God was incorporeal or he at least acknowledged that people
"greater than the rambam" did not believe that God was so, and no one
would argue that these individuals were somehow kofrim. The idea I am
trying to bring out is that NECESSITATING BELIEF IN A LIST OF IDEALS is
not inherently a Jewish idea, but was taken from Moslem philosophy, most
likely.
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From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
Subject: Re: Adam and Chava
No need for mesader kiddushim or eidim. They were not even Jews, and
furthermore, it was before the Torah was given. The Rambam states
explicitly that before the Torah was given, it was permissible for a man
and women to simply agree to be married, then go live together.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 14:54:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Adam and Chava's wedding
>I'm really curious. Who was mesader kiddushin at Adam and Chava's
>nissuin? Who were the aydim?
>Rabbi Ed Goldstein
I don't remember in whose name I heard this, one talmid chocham as a
young child answered: witnesses are required at a wedding because the
marriage makes the wife forbidden to everyone else. At the time of Adam
and Chava there was no one else. Therefore, there was no need for
witnesses. The medrash says that Hashem braided Chava's hair and brought
her to Adam. I don't know if that qualifies Hashem as the mesader
kedushin.
Kol Tov
Ezriel
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From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 13:38:11 +0200
Subject: Re: Conservative and Orthodox Shuls in 1960's
basically an "Orthodox" service with mixed seating. At the
F.J.C. it wasn't even that mixed. The synagogue was divided by 3
aisles into 4
Holliswood Jewish Center in Queens also had that in the '60's. But at
the same time in the mid-west USA the orthodox shuls frequently had
mixed seating. I remember stories of NCSY events where the dovening
couldn't be with the congregation. (There's at least one lurker on mj
who can give us more info on that.)
Batya
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From: Zev Sero <slipstick1@...>
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:49:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Kosher Goat's Cheese
Stephen Phillips <stephenp@...> wrote:
> I have just bought some goat's cheese. It's originally from Chile
> with a Hechsher [Kashrus certificate] from the OK Labs. The Hechsher
> states, below the OKD, "Cholov Yisroel koshered at 212 degrees."
>
> My question is what does it mean that it was "koshered at 212 degrees?"
> How can boiling up something make it kosher?
The reference is to the equipment. The normal rule is that utensils
must be koshered with boiling water, but it is very common to rule that
machines which are only used at lower temperatures can be koshered with
water that is at a slightly higher temperature, especially if the owner
is afraid that boiling water will ruin them. Milk is usually
pasteurised at 75C or less, so the machines are usually koshered at 85C
or so, and almost never at 100C, so the label on your cheese is intended
to inform you that in this case they did not rely on the usual leniency,
and used boiling (100C) water.
Zev Sero
<zsero@...>
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From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 08:31:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Observant Jews as vegetarians
In a previous post I reported having heard that Rav. Kook was a
vegetarian. A private e-mail sent to me contested this, saying that
Rav. Kook most certainly was _not_ a vegetarian, but that some of his
followers were. Reviewing a translation of some of his writings, it did
_not_ indicate that Rav. Kook was a vegetarian, but did suggest that we
will become vegetarians in the Messianic era, and that restoration of
the Temple sacrifices will not include animal sacrifice. (So
vegetarians need not fear Moshiach.)
Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana
<fs@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 08:45:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Pants or Skirts?
In v39 n16 Janet Rosenbaum writes:
> Actually, it is a minority opinion that pants are beged ish.
> The real issue is just plain tsniut ...
Does the isue of beged ish / beged isha apply to undergarments? (If so,
then there might be a conflict between tsniut vs. beged ish -- even for
women who wear dresses or skirts as outer clothing.)
Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana
<fs@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Anonymous
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:02:44
Subject: Re: Pants or Skirts?
Janet Rosenbaum wrote:
> Actually, it is a minority opinion that pants are beged ish. The real
> issue is just plain tsniut --- that there is something inherently
> un-tsnua about pants.
To some extent this may be true, but I have a personal problem that
leans the other way.
We have a family friend who is a non-religious single woman. Whenever
she visits us, she makes a point of wearing a skirt, rather than pants,
out of her respect for our religious lifestyle. (I think her efforts in
that direction, in this and other cases, show an exemplary level of
midot).
Unfortunately, the only skirts she seems to own end at least six inches
above the knee. This past Pesach my teenaged yeshiva student son asked
me to please request of her that she wear pants instead!
I know this is an old line "pants are more tzanua than some skirts", but
I think it is really true, halacha lemaaseh!
Anonymous
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From: Esther Posen <eposen@...>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 15:14:15 -0500
Subject: RE: Pants or Skirts
Russel Hendel seems to assert that some men are only attracted to women
who wear pants in public and that their marriage would fall apart in
some dimension if the man became the only member of the family wearing
the pants. How large a percentage of Orthodox women wearing pants do
you reasonably believe fall into this category? Does this mean that the
women should only wear pants in the public presence of her husband.
Esther Posen
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From: Stephen Phillips <stephenp@...>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:52 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Potato Starch
> From: Danny Skaist <danny@...>
> <<Yehonatan Chipman
> Since one explanation of the prohibition on kitniyot is that it might
> be ground into a kind of flour, which could then be confused mixed up
> with forbidden grain flour, this would obviously not apply to oils. >>
>
> But this would apply to potato starch. Making potatoes kitniyot.
I recently heard a Rov (Rabbi Tugendhaft of Elstree, England) say that
had potatoes been known of at the time when the Issur (prohibition) of
kitniyot first arose, then we would not be allowed to eat them on
Pesach.
Stephen Phillips.
<stephenp@...>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 15:08:52 +0200
Subject: Re: Potato Starch
Danny Skaist <danny@...> asked:
> <<Yehonatan Chipman
> Since one explanation of the prohibition on kitniyot is that it might
> be ground into a kind of flour, which could then be confused mixed up
> with forbidden grain flour, this would obviously not apply to oils. >>
>
> But this would apply to potato starch. Making potatoes kitniyot.
Wasn't it Rabbi Akiva Eiger who reached that exact conclusion, and
forbade potatoes? I have never seen this in print, but have heard such a
story. Does anyone here know if it is true, or urban (or suburban)
legend?
Shimon Lebowitz mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp
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From: Shlomo Pick <picksh@...>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 13:36:01 +0200
Subject: Rice at the Seder Plate
sam saal is under the impression that rav huna was a sephardi because he
ate rice on passover.
no, davka he was a frenchman, see the mordechai at the end of pesachim
(to 114b) where r. yechiel of paris davka ate rice. probably to
demonstrate that he wasn't influenced by german customs.
shlomo
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From: <MDSternM7@...> (Martin D. Stern)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:58:59 EDT
Subject: Siddur Hageonim Vehamekubbalim by Rabbi Weinstock
I have been trying to obtain some volumes (4 - 8 incl. and 10) of the
Siddur Hageonim Vehamekubbalim by Rabbi Weinstock which is currently out of
print. Can anyone help me?
Martin Stern
7, Hanover Gardens, Salford M7 4FQ, England
( +44(1)61-740-2745
email <mdsternm7@...>
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From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 14:43:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Size of Kezayis, Candles, Danger
R' Hershel Schachter once told me that someone with a heart condition
who blows shofar is not yotze the mitzvah because the danger makes it
into a mitzvah ha-ba'ah ba-aveirah. He applied the same to someone who
lights Chanukah candles in a dangerous place.
Gil Student
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From: David and Toby Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:34:22 +0300
Subject: Size of Kezayit
> From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
> I remember in yeshiva bringing up the issue of the "mega-kezayis" of
> today's "Pesach shiurim". The point I made was that according to the
> opinion that you should swallow the kazayis in one gulp, how can you say
> it is so large that it would be very difficult or dangerous to do that?
> My point was waved off as "baalabatish".
Rav Elyashiv Knohl, the Rav of Kibbutz Kfar Etzion, has given a shiur on
the expanding size issue for Pesach. His bottom line was that if you do
say that the size of a kezayit is larger than previously assumed, the
amount of time required to eat it must also increase in parallel - such
that there should always be a comfortable amount of time available for
eating whatever size is required.
David Curwin
Efrat, Israel
<tobyndave@...>
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From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:22:47 +0200
Subject: State of Israel: Jewish! Jewish?
Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...> wrote
Does anyone know if Rabbi Ravitz actually said this?
since Rav Ravitz was in the Lechi underground as a youngster, fighting
the British and I presume trying to establish a state, a Jewish one, I
guess that you could say that opposed to his words today, his actions
were different then. The options for conclusion are: he was smarter
today then he was then, or....
Yisrael Medad
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End of Volume 39 Issue 24
