Volume 39 Number 48
                 Produced: Tue May 27  4:53:51 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Another rabbi charged with fraud (2)
         [Ari Trachtenberg, Dani Wassner]
Drambuie  (CRC vs Star-K Liquor Lists)
         [Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer]
Hot water on Shabbat
         [Joshua Hosseinof]
Hot Water on Shabbos
         [Daniel Wells]
         [Michael Rogovin]
No'ach mit zibn greizen
         [Yehonatan Chipman]
Publication of Compilation of Prayers
         [Yael Levine Katz]


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:31:28 -0400
Subject: Another rabbi charged with fraud

 >From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
 >It is terribly painful when a respected Rav or other respected person in
 >our community engages in criminal activity.  It is of course not limited
 >to Orthodox Rabbanim, as there have recently been scandals involving
 >Conservative and Reform as well.  Do we somehow think that Orthodox
 >Rabbanim should be held to a higher standard, since they do tend to be
 >more m'dakdek as to observance of Mitzvot than colleagues in the other
 >divisions of Judaism?

Like Moshe rabbeinu who was held to a higher standard because of his
stature in the community, so must rabbanim be held to a higher standard
than lay people.  Since the Orthodox movement claims to distinguish
itself as the purveyor of "authentic Judaism", Orthodox rabbis should be
held to an even higher standard than non-traditional rabbis, because
their behavior reflects not only themselves, but also on the entire

Kol tuv,
Ari Trachtenberg,                                      Boston University
http://people.bu.edu/trachten                    mailto:<trachten@...>

From: Dani Wassner <dani@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:24:32 +0200
Subject: RE: Another rabbi charged with fraud

This reminds me of a story I heard a few years ago (unfortunately I
can't remember the name of the Rav who told the story).

The Rav explained that many years ago he was working at an NCSY summer
camp.  Some of the kids came and told him that they were troubled by
stories of "frum Jews who had committed fraud" (or other unsavoury

The Rav asked the kids what they thought of a frum guy he knew who drove
on Shabbat or another frum guy who enjoyed eating at treif restaurants.

The children, looking puzzled answered "but clearly those people aren't
frum. How can you be frum and drive on Shabbat? It's a contradiction in

The Rav simply smiled and nodded his head.

Dani Wassner


From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer <frimea@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:01:47 +0300
Subject: Drambuie  (CRC vs Star-K Liquor Lists)

    Below is my correspondance with both the CRC and the Star-K
regarding Drambuie (Chronologically, from the end to the top).  The
bottom line is that the CRC doesn't have it on its recommended list "Due
to the fact that Drambuie is not by a hashgacha, we can not recomend
it."  The Star-K, on the other hand, does recommend Drambuie based on
information from the Dayan Westheim of the London Bet Din (LBD).

    Kol Tuv

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Shim Greenberg

Due to the fact that Drambuie is not by a hashgacha, we can not recomend
it. Hope this helps.


-----Original Message-----
From: Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer [mailto:<frimea@...>]
To: <sgreenberg@...>

      Dear Rabbi Greenberg,
    After receiving your letter indicating that the CRC no longer
recommended Drambuie, I wrote Rabbi Tzvi Rosen of the Star-K
<rabbirosen@...>.  As the (slightly edited) letter below
indicates, they DO recommend Drambuie based on information from the
Dayan Westheim of the London Bet Din (LBD). Could you inform Rabbi
Rosen and myself why you no longer recommend Drambuie.
    Much thanks in advance, ve-Khol Tuv
            (Rabbi Prof.) Aryeh Frimer

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rabbi Tzvi Rosen" <rabbirosen@...>

Dear Rabbi Frimer   

    Years ago we recommended Drambuie after speaking with Dayan Westheim
in Manchester.  After a few years it was suggested that we update our
liquor list and one of the sources of information that we used is the
London Bais Din liquor list.  Many of the recommended products on that
list does not have a hechsher.  The LBD researches a lot of the liqueurs
through questionnaires.  We in the US do not rely on this method for
liqueurs however England does.  Never the less Drambuie features.  I
called the Manchester Bais Din the source of the "thou shalt not use
Drambuie" directive and spoke to one of the Rabbanim at that time.  I
asked them what liqueur list do your caterers use and they said the LBD!

    During my first go around researching this issue, the problem was
explained as "there may be a tad of glycerine(botul) but they claim that
the glycerine is vegetable.

    Now back to modern history.  I call Dayan Westheim back and he stood
firm on his position that when they tested the stuff they could not find
any trace of glycerine.  Furthermore he said that if it was there it may
be a solvent definitely an umdina d'muchach that there isn't anything
traif in the liqueur and he said it is fine.

    So based on all the research and the nod from Dayan Westheim, Rav
Heinemann said that it is OK

        Kol tuv
            Tzvi Rosen

P.S. Did the CRC say why they did not recommend it ?


From: Joshua Hosseinof <jh@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:07:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Hot water on Shabbat

Well, there are two possible things that you might be proposing with
adjusting the boiler temperature.

If it is to turn off the boiler completely for shabbat so that the hot
water cools down, then as Ari says, once the water drops to just below
Yad soledet it should be permitted.  (Before it drops below Yad soledet
it would still be prohibited because new water entering the boiler would
be heated by Toldot chamah - that is what I recall from Yalkut Yosef vol
4 when I looked into this topic in the past).

If on the other hand you are suggesting to lower the running temperature
of the boiler to just below Yad Soledet, and not actually turned it off,
then I would have thought that it should still be prohibited because the
boiler will still be actively heating the new water entering the boiler.
I think this might revolve around whether the prohibition of cooking
liquids is only if you raise the temperature of the liquid above Yad
soledet or if the prohibition applies to even raising the water
temperature a few degrees.

I know in the situations where someone walks in from the rain, one is
not allowed to warm up hands near a heater or stove untill one is dry
because of this concern, and certainly in the case of the rain you would
not be warming up the water above yad soledet.

Josh Hosseinof


From: Daniel Wells <wells@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:09:21 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Hot Water on Shabbos

> As far as I know, all poskim believe that is is forbidden to turn
> on the hot water in your house on Shabbat -- yet many people find this
> halakhah too difficult to follow. (In Israel, where they use solar
> heaters, I assume this would be permitted -- halakhic experts, correct
> me if I am wrong).

The problem is not the "turning on the hot water in your house on
Shabbat" but the (automatic) replenishing of the tank by cold water
which then gets heated (cooked!) by the existing hot water.

The author of Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchata (HaRav Neuwirth from Bayit
Vegan in Jerusalem) apparently held in his first edition that the solar
heater was allowed since the cooking of inputted cold water was not done
by normal cooking means. However in later editions he withdrew this
ruling due to strenuous opposition.

However if a faucet is attached to prevent cold water input, then
presumably there is no issur to use the hot water say for washing

> With this done you can use the hot water, and I don't see why you
> shouldn't also be able to take a shower

Washing the complete body on Shabbos (ie with a bath or shower) is not
normally allowed unless you happen to fall in a cess pit or similar
where the washing is to enable you to perform mitzvahs you would not be
able to do. And even then it would be better to do it organ by organ and
with liquid soap.

Tevilah without washing is allowed for men who are accustomed every day
of the year to tovel - and women only if it is on the prescribed
date. If for any reason her Tevilah is defered and the next available
date would be a Friday night, she would also have to defer again to the
evening after.  This is the same situation as with Milah on Shabbat - it
is only allowed if it is exactly the eighth day)

> (Again, halakhic experts will have to weigh in on whether one can wash
> the hair. If you don't lather the shampoo, this too should be permitted)

But the big problem with hair is untying knotted hairs and generally it
is the hair that makes the towel very wet, thus arriving at the issur of
sechita, that you may come to wring the towel out.

> If you don't lather the shampoo

Just putting shampoo on the hair and not rubbing it in would appear
ineffectual. Rubbing it in (ie lathering) with the hand could be

> yet many people find this halakhah (hot water usage) too difficult to
> follow.

>From experience with friends who became Baalei Teshuva, this was one of
the easier things to keep.

For most of us, even living in a hot climate like in Israel where many
shower almost every weekday, since we do not get involved in strenuous
outside activities on Shabbos, and many of us spend the time in air
conditioned facilities, the need for a shower on Shabbos is usually
unnecessary especially for the once a day showerers.

On top of which its a mitzva to take a shower or bath before the onset of
Shabbos, and a mere 26 hours later on Motzei Shabbos, it is again

Obviously a One or Two Day YomTov followed by Shabbos is difficult, but
most do manage and washing organ by organ is allowed.

As an aside, many here in Israel do have a separate cold water tank on
the roof which is disconnected before Shabbos from the normal input
water pipelines since the water company pumps with electricity generated
on the Shabbos.

Disclaimer: The halachos mentioned above are my personal understanding
and verification should be made with a competant-orthodox Rabbi.

I just hope I didn't get myself into the proverbial 'hot water' - <grin>



From: Michael Rogovin <rogovin@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:15:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Mechitza

Batya Medad writes:

> I've been in too many "Orthodox" shuls with minimally kosher mechitzot. 
> I've seen m/f couples holding hands when "separated" like that.  
> That's the point of the separation; we should be able to see when the
> Aron Kodesh is open or shut, but we shouldn't be able to watch or
> communicate with the opposite sex.

In appropriate behavior is inappropriate. While I agree generally with
most of what Batya writes, I have seen similar behavior in places with
5-6 foot high mostly opaque mechitzot. Usually it involves one person
waving, motioning or going up to the mechitza, standing on tip toes and
whispering to get the attention of the other, and often passing objects
(or babies) over the mechitza (which I understand is problematic for
other reasons). In reality, as I understand it, mechitza is about
physical, not visual, separation. That does not mean that having visual
separation is a bad thing.

I imagine that people on the list will have very different ideas about
what an "ideal" mechitza would be. So long as we do not confuse that
with whether it is kosher, I think that is a great topic for discussion.

My own preference is down the middle with the bima in the middle; not
putting the women off to the side, back or balcony. It should not be so
high that it blocks sound or visual cues from the bimah or aron. I like
the ones at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale and KOE in Manhattan. Ones
that make women feel like they are closed in a corner or separate room
are offensive to me.



From: Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:37:25 +0300
Subject: Re: No'ach mit zibn greizen

In MJ v39n36, Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...> wrote:

<<An old Yiddish expression to indicate that a written item has numerous
errors is to refer to it as being "No'ach mit zibn greizen," i.e., (the
spelling of the single two-letter word) "No'ach with seven errors." It
can be done I'm told, but I haven't really tried it.  In any event, the
announcer on Israel's 6 a.m. news this morning...  said the following
(in Hebrew, of course): "Today are twenty-eight days of the Omer, which
are three weeks and eight days."  I believe she deserves a prize for
creative mathematics.>>

    On the other hand, Agnon, in his story "Tehillah" has the elderly
heroine refer to herself as being "tishim arba-esreh" ("ninety
fourteen") -- that is, 104 years old.  Accurate, but certainly not
conventional usage.

   By the way, I never realized that the origin of the phrase was davka
Yiddish.  The phrase "Noah besheva shegiot" is used in contemporary
Hebrew to convey the same idea.  

Yehonatan Chipman


From: Yael Levine Katz <ylkpk@...>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:43:33 +0200
Subject: Publication of Compilation of Prayers

I am pleased to announce the publication of the pamphlet Si'ah Sefatayim:
Zeror Tefillot by The Old City Press (Defus ha-Ir ha-Atikah) in
Jerusalem. The compilation includes four prayers in Hebrew which I have
composed: Tehinnah for a Woman Before Torah Study; Prayer Concerning
Women who have been Murdered by their Spouses; Prayer For Finding a
Husband; Prayer for Finding a Wife.
The Tehinnah for a Woman Before Torah Study and the Prayer for Finding a
Husband have been recently published in English translation in the volume
Pray Tell. The precise reference is: Leora Tanenbaum and Vanessa Paloma,
"Orthodox Women's Private Prayers", Pray Tell: A Hadassah Guide to
Jewish Prayer, eds. Claudia R. Chernov and Carol Diament, Woodstock,
Vermont: Jewish Lights, 2003, pp. 269-272.
Orders may be placed directly with Defus ha-Ir ha-Atikah at 972-2-6661999
or I may also be contacted. The price of a single choveret (pamphlet) is
IS 10 including V.A.T. (without postage). Bulk orders of over 100 copies
are discounted - IS 7 per unit.



End of Volume 39 Issue 48