Volume 40 Number 24
                 Produced: Mon Jul 28 23:00:03 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Call for Papers from JOFA: "Women and Men in Partnership"
         [Freda B Birnbaum]
Children not attending Second Marriage
Cities of Refuge (4)
         [Reuben Rudman, Gershon Dubin, Dov Teichman, Shimon Lebowitz]
Cities of Refuge in Machenah Levy
         [Gershon Dubin]
Kosher Cheese
         [Kobi Ableman]
The Rebbe
         [Yehonatan Chipman]
Rebbi vs Rav
         [Gilad Gevaryahu]
the Rov
         [Shraga Rubin]
Shiluach Haken
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
         [Michael Kahn]
         [Batya Medad]


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Subject: Call for Papers from JOFA: "Women and Men in Partnership"

I've been asked by JOFA to pass this on, and do so with great interest.

Freda Birnbaum

15 E.26TH STREET, SUITE #915
NEW YORK, NY 10010
PHONE: (212) 679-8500
FAX: (212) 679-7428
E-MAIL: <JOFA@...>

Call for Papers:

JOFA (the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance) invites submissions for its
Fifth International Conference on Feminism and Orthodoxy, to be held in
New York City Washington's Birthday weekend, Sunday through Monday,
February 15-16, 2004. The conference, entitled "Zachar u-Neqevah Bara
Otam: Women and Men in Partnership," aims to explore the roles that Jewish
ritual, halakha, and culture play in relationships and interactions
between women and men, paying particular attention to the implications of
changing gender roles in Jewish families, institutions, synagogues and
schools.  We encourage submissions that explore this topic from a variety
of perspectives.

Suggested papers and workshop proposals may include an examination of the
many ways in which women and men together effect change.  Must the initial
impetus for change originate from women?  For example, if women are not
vocal about the need for more inclusion in synagogue ritual practices,
should Rabbis be proactive in initiating change?  Should we challenge the
assumption that male authoritative approval is required for change to take
effect?  Is it a foregone conclusion that as women gain access to Jewish
ritual practice, men must abdicate some control over those practices?
Papers can explore the various ways halakha dictates the relationship
between women and men.  Does halakha mandate traditional gender roles in a
marriage?  Does it affect the way single people date?  How does it affect
the way we relate to sex and sexuality within and without the confines of
marriage?  How do we educate young girls and boys to understand their
relationship to gender and gender roles?  How early do we need to start?
What do our Orthodox day schools do right in this regard and how can they
do better?  How does our understanding of gender impact our theology?
Does it implicate the way we view God and our relationship to God?

We invite proposals for individual papers and panel presentations.  We
especially encourage the submission of topics that lend themselves to
interactive discussions and workshops.  Please submit a short abstract of
your proposed presentation, as well as a brief CV by September 15, 2003.
Proposals should be sent via email to: <conference@...>  Proposals may
also be mailed the JOFA Office, 15 East 26th Street, Suite 915, New York,
NY 10010, Attn: Fifth International Conference on Feminism and Orthodoxy.


From: <Danmim@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:29:17 EDT
Subject: Children not attending Second Marriage

do you know of a makor for children not attending the second marriage of
a parent?


From: Reuben Rudman <rudman@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:02:55 -0400
Subject: Cities of Refuge

V40#19, Question was asked: 

> Anyone familiar with a commentator(s) saying that Macheneh Levy served
> as Orei Miklot ?

In Mesechta Zevachim 117a it says that they would find refuge in the
Levite camp (Machaneh Leviah); based on a posuk.

In the Mechilta on Shmos 21:13 it also says this and gives a logical
reason as well as the reason based on the pasuk.

Rashi mentions it in Chumash, on Shmos 21:13.  Other meforshim also
mention it.

It is also mentioned by Rashi on Mesechta Makkos 12b, s.v. Makom.  This
Rashi is quoted twice by Rav Meir Simcha:

a. Meshech Chachma, Bamidbar perek 35 pasuk 13
b. Ohr Sameach on Hilchos Shmitta v'Yovel perek 13  halacha 7.

Since we are taught (e.g., Rashi in this week's layning) that the laws
of Ohrey Miklat (Cities of Refuge) were not in effect until all 6 cities
were established, after the conquest of the land, the question arises -
was there a Machaneh Leviah in existence during that period (if yes,
presumably located near the Mishkan) or were the laws of Ohrey Miklat
suspended during the time of the Kivush Ha'aretz or did they become
effective in the cities of the Levi'im as they were conquered?  The
Meshech Chachma does mention that after Bayis Rishon the cities of the
Lewvi'im ceased to be a refuge and only the 6 Ohrey Miklat were
operational.  He does not mention anything about the period during the
Kivush Ha'aretz.  )There are Halachic differences between finding refuge
in an Ir Miklat versus refuge in the Levite city.)

So the question remains - during the years of Kivush Ha'aretz was there
a place of refuge or not?  Any sources on this?

I have not found any direct sources but my sense of this is that there
was always a place of refuge with the Levi'im.  Rashi in Shmos says : af
bamidbar..., EVEN in the Midbar..., which would imply that a place of
refuge was available from the days of the Midbar and afterwards; and the
cities of the Levi'im would be the place to go.

Reuben Rudman

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:16:46 GMT
Subject: Cities of Refuge

Rambam, Hilchos Rotzei'ach, Chapter 8 Halacha 7.


From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:30:42 EDT
Subject: Re: Cities of Refuge

The Gemara in Makkos 12b and Zevachim 117a bring a Braisa that expounds a
verse in Shmos 21 that the Machane Leviah was the Ir Miklat in the

Dov Teichman

From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:24:03 +0200
Subject: Re: Cities of Refuge

The gemara in Makkot, 10a, states:

" 'and in addition to them (the 6 cities of refuge) you shall give 42
cities' Abbaye said: 'These (the 6) accept (as refuge) knowingly and
unknowingly, these (the other 42 cities of Levi'im) accept knowinly, but
not unknowingly' " .

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:57:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Cities of Refuge in Machenah Levy

<<If it somehow pre-existed 1: , then we have the interesting fact that
there were people praying for Aharon Ha'Kohen the one who rodef shalom-
to die>>

Since the pasuk says that ALL of Israel mourned Aharon, the Meshech
Chochma derives from this that in fact (although the laws applied)
*nobody* killed beshogeg in the midbar.



From: Kobi Ableman <nadkobi@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:01:05 +0200
Subject: Kosher Cheese

Hi all,
This is such a mundane question but I figure this is a good place to ask
the question.  And no this is not to harangue about Rennet and hashgacha
Is it possible to get kosher Halloumi cheese in the United States,
specifically Boston area or New Jersey.  Certainly if any of you are
visiting Israel it is widely available, although not cheap.  It is very
versatile - you can grill or fry it by itself - so it is a good diet food
(well for hi protein diets).
Sorry this is not that philosophical.
Kobi Ableman


From: Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:08:37 +0300
Subject: re:  The Rebbe

In MJ v40n19, Mark Symons <msymons@...> wrote:

<<On a bit of a tangent to this, why is it that we refer to "The
Rambam", "The Ibn Ezra", "The Maharal", whereas Rashi and Ramban, for
example, don't get the definite article?>>

   Strange are the ways of Yeshivish English.  Actually, any spoken
language has anomalies of this type.  In this case, the usage is clearly
borrowed from the Yiddish, "Der / Dem Rambam," etc.  But "hadar kushya
le-dukhtei": the question returns, why is it that way in Yiddish?  (By
the way, in formal writing, I always use "Rambam" without the article.)

    If I may stretch the tangent a bit further: Despite living the first
22 years of my life in New York City, I never understood why "the Bronx"
always takes the definite article, while we don't speak of "The
Manhattan" or "The Brooklyn"?

   Similarly, some street names take the definte article.  Two examples
occur to me from London: "The Strand" and "The Grove" (in Golders
Green).  Any thoughts?

    Yehonatan Chipman


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad Gevaryahu)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 12:02:23 EDT
Subject: Rebbi vs Rav

Martin D Stern objects to my statement that title Rav vs. Rebbi change
with time and with group. He writes (MJv40n23):
<<I fear he has completely missed the point. Rabbenu Hakadosh (as a
Tanna and had semikhah) should be referred to as Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi
not Rav Yehudah which would be appropriate for an amora who did not have
semikhah. Modern terminology is not relevant to this point.>>

I am afraid that Mr. Stern did not examine the sources carefully.

His source for the saying <<'Gadol meiRav Rabbi, vegadol meiRabbi
Rabban, vegadol meiRabban shemo'>> is based Tosefta Eduyot (3:4), "Mi
she'yesh lo tamlidim veTalmidav kor'im oto Rabi, nishtakechu talmidav
kor'im oto Raban, nishtakchu elu, korim oto biShemo" [* translation
below] and the meaning there is not an absolute greatness of titles,
that is, simple name is greater than Raban, and Raban is greater than
Rebbi and Rebbi is greater than Rav, but rather it is the distance from
the person in generations that changed the reference to him. If
Mr. Stern does not trust my reading of the text then he can see that the
Hatam Sofer understood it that way (Sho"t Hatam Sofer 5-Hashmatot, Siman
205). [* he who has disciples and his disciples call him Rabi, if that
group was forgotten {with passage of time} he is called Raban, and if
these latter group was forgotten he is called by his name]

The problem with the absolute greatness suggested by Mr. Stern is that
there are no measurement rods for its use. When and how do you measure
the relative greatness? While alive? 100 years later? Today? Another
problem is that if the rule is to be understood as an absolute, then how
do you explain that it is "Moshe Rabbeinu" but not "Moshe" stam as the
rule should have applied? And besides, why isn't it "Rabbeinu Moshe"
instead? What do you do with "Rav and Shmuel"?

There is some evidence that the Mishnah understood the title as the
Tosefat suggests: "Aseh lecha rav" (Avot 1"16) that is a direct
relationship. The Talmud generally refers to the Babylonian Amorai'm as
Rav, whereas in Israel the general title was Rebbi or Rabbi. "Rabbi
Tarfon - Rabban shel kol Israel" (Yerushalmi, Horayot 47:4) But the
title issue base on a strict "absolute" rule does not work. There are
cases for every exception. See for example "hatam Rebbi kar'u li hacha
Rebbi kar'u li" (B"M 84a) [there they calle me Rebbi and here they call
me Rebbi] where Rashi says s.v. "Rebbi kar'u li: Raban shel listim" Note
Rashi's use of Raban for the chief robber!

In short I stand behind my initial suggestion that "Titles change with
passage of time and within various groups." then as well as now.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: <BaalHaIkvei@...> (Shraga Rubin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:42:24 -0400
Subject: the Rov

In MJ v40n19 Haim Shalom Snyder wrote
> "Please be advised that in Israel, the term "the Rav" is generally a
> reference to Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Hacohen Kook and Americans have to be
> careful to stipulate that they're talking about Rav 
> Soloveichik when they use the term."

A good number of Israelis use the term the Rov to refer to the Brisker
Rov, Rabbi Yitzchok Ze'ez Halaivi Soloveichik.

Shraga Rubin


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:21:40 +0300
Subject: Re: Shiluach Haken

>The views of rishonim take precendence over those of achronim,

How does this fit in with the saying "halakha kebasra"?



From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:34:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Tzizit

>There are only 612 OTHER Commandments (besides Tzitzith). When reading
>GOD,then quite simply we only have to remember the >OTHER commandments,
>not the fringe commandment itself, and there are only >612 of these
>other commandments

Interestingly, in the yehi ratzon recited when putting on tzitzis we
speak of the 613 (!) mitzvos that are contingent on the mitzva of
tzitzis (vtaryag mitzvos hataluim bo).


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:10:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Tz'ruya

              We find a similar technique used by Yoav ben Tz'ruya
      (David's chief-of-staff) and his brothers.  According to Divrei
      HaYamim, Tz'ruya was David's sister.  The situation is further
      intriguing in that nowhere are we told what Yoav's father's name
      was.  I recall hearing that Yoav

As the mother of Tzruya Medad Luzon, I've been asked about the name for
thirty years already.  Yes, there is a pasuk clearly indicating that she
was King David's sister.  Yoav and his bothers are considered their
mother's sons, just like Princess Anne's children are referred to as
hers and not what's his names'.



End of Volume 40 Issue 24