Volume 40 Number 51
                 Produced: Fri Aug 29  6:15:16 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Avoiding woman--Standards of Modesty
         [Gershon Dubin]
Bringing your own food on board planes
         [Carl Singer]
Bugs in Corn-on-the-Cob
         [Bernard Raab]
Certified non-kosher?
Commandment to Marry
         [Yehuda Landy]
Kashrus in the US Military
         [Joshua Seidemann]
Kosher and Halal (2)
         [Yehuda Landy, Akiva Miller]
Kosher MREs (3)
         [Dave Eckhardt, Jonathan Katz, Joshua Hosseinof]
Milk and Meat
         [Immanuel Burton]
A new Shabbos issue in hotels
         [Carl Singer]
Rabbi Avraham Magence zatzal
         [Aryeh Weil]


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:18:28 GMT
Subject: Avoiding woman--Standards of Modesty

From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>

<<And after all as long as a square handbreadth of thighs and breasts
are not exposed you could probably recite the shma in her presence>>

Not true; the parameter is that which is usually covered.  That includes
anywhere between the neck and knees except the lower arms and hands.

That many people walk around in the street dressed in a way that would
have gotten them arrested 100 years ago **at the beach** does not change
the halacha.

Determination of that halacha by reference to societal norms applies
only to such areas as the lower leg and, according to the Aruch
Hashulchan (only), married women's hair.



From: Carl Singer <csngr@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:19:19 -0400
Subject: Bringing your own food on board planes

> Yes , they do exist.
> But nowadays they can be problematic on airline flights due to the
> increase in security concerns.

I want to indorse the above.  Consider also that even plastic knives &
forks may cause you delay -- suggest something simple for airplane food
-- a sandwhich, candybars, fruit, etc.  It should go without saying that
'self-heating" meals are inappropriate for carrying on board re:
security.  I don't know if they travel well in luggage.


From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:47:33 -0400
Subject: Bugs in Corn-on-the-Cob

From: David Ziants <dziants@...>

>Recently, a notification put out by the Rabbanut HaRashit (Israel Chief
>Rabbinate) was placed on our shul notice board concerning insects/ bugs
>in "corn on the cob".
>To summarise, the best I can:
>Laboratory tests over several years have shown that corn on the cob,
>whether raw, frozen or preserved, are very commonly infected with bugs
>that are called (in Hebrew) "trippasim & akariot" [what are these in
>English? DZ]. This can be up to 70-80% in one cluster Also sometimes 20
>types of bugs in one cluster. [Hebrew: "b'gidul echad"- I assume
>"cluster" is the correct English term for this - DZ].

I think it's possible that this problem does not occur in the US.
Agricultural pests tend to be very locale-dependent. The major corn pest
in this country seems to be the corn earworm. A U. of Wisconsin paper
http://www1.uwex.edu/ces/pubs/pdf/A3655.PDF indicates that this worm
feeds on the tip of the ear and then falls to the ground. (So that's why
the tips frequently appear to have been eaten!) In all my years of
eating corn I have never encountered a bug inside the cob, but I'll be
looking for them now!

BTW, when I grew my own veggies it was very evident that each variety
was loved by a different bug. Since I didn't spray, they eventually took
over and ended the growing season. Only occasionally did a bug burrow
into the fruit and this was usually very evident from the outside. If
not, cutting into it clearly revealed the problem.

Before embarking on a step which will inevitably raise the price of
kosher food still further, a little restraint and common sense is in
order. Most people, not just kosher Jews, are repulsed by the
possibility of eating bugs with their dinner, and will normally inspect
vegatables which are likely to contain them. If there is a particular
concern about a particular variety, the public should be alerted before
another vegetable is "assered".

b'shalom--Bernie R.


From: <CARATSTONE@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:30:02 EDT
Subject: Certified non-kosher?

After eating lunch in a 4 star hotel in Israel, I noticed a bottle of
Bailey's Irish Cream in the bar/restaurant.  After quickly looking at
the bottle and hebrew writing on the label on the back, I decided to ask
the mashgiach if it was really kosher, as I have never seen it on an
approved list in the US.  He told me it is milchig, and that our lunch
was basari.  I then told him I found it interesting that Bailey's is not
considered kosher in the US. He responded that not only is it milchig,
but also treif.  When I asked about the t'eudah Kashrut on the wall, he
told me that applies only to the food...not to the drinks served in the
bar.  When I told him I found the hebew on the label confusing (lots of
writing but in fact no hechsher) which might lead a casual reader to
think the hebrew says "kosher", he agreed.  How can an establishment
with T'eudat Kashrut in Jerusalem serve non-kosher product?


From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:20:46 +0300
Subject: Re: Commandment to Marry

See sefer Hachinuch mitzvah 552, and Rambam aseh 213.
Yehuda Landy

> From: Barak Greenfield <docbjg@...>
> Russell J Hendel wrote:
> > There is a positive commandment that if I want to have relations then
> > I must first engage/marry the woman.
> Where is this found?


From: Joshua Seidemann <quartertones@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:44:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Kashrus in the US Military

Mr. Singer's remarks reminded me of my father's accounts of service in
Korea: canned chicken provided by the Jewish Welfare Board, and an
accomodating army cook who offered to make a separate order of eggs once
the ham was off the griddle.


From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:15:04 +0300
Subject: Re: Kosher and Halal

I'd really appreciate when quoting such stories to please mention the
source or some other info which can help authenticate the story.

Yehuda Landy

> From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
>         An interesting tangent to this fact (and after all, what are
> conversations or discussions without tangents?)  is that Rav Kook zt'l
> was once asked by a shochet whether he could say "Allah Achbar" before
> slaughtering meat for his Moslem clients.  Rav Kook answered in the
> affirmative because Moslems are "as montheistic" as Jews and that saying
> "God is great" in any language is not an issue.

From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 03:38:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Kosher and Halal

I remember an article from about a year or two ago about a college where
the Jewish and Muslem students got together to make a dining room and
kitchen would be both kosher and halal. It caught my attention because
it said that each group was taught about the other's rules so that
neither would be compomised.

I was surprised by the implication there might be some things which are
acceptable to Jews but not Muslims, so I read more carefully, and found
an interesting case: Islam forbids alcohol, and that includes the base
commonly used for ordinary flavorings and colorings in the kitchen. The
students were taught not to use such products because it is unacceptable
to the Muslims.

I also recall hearing that Islam does not share our concept of
nullifying very small quanties of forbidden foods which fell in by
mistake. If some pork fell into a product, it could possibly happen that
the rabbi would accept it, while the imam would not. Nor might some

Akiva Miller


From: Dave Eckhardt <davide+<receptionist@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:44:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Kosher MREs

> But nowadays they can be problematic on airline
> flights due to the increase in security concerns.

I'm suggesting airlines themselves could stock them for situations when
passengers and their regular kosher meals are separated by unfortunate

Aside from the actual air travel, they could be very useful in
situations where an airline typically gives passengers stranded
overnight a meal voucher.

Dave Eckhardt

From: Jonathan Katz <jkatz@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:50:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Kosher MREs

I just heard about the pre-packaged meals available from this site:

and they are self-heating, too!

From: Joshua Hosseinof <jh@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:50:38 -0400
Subject: re: Kosher MREs

There's a very interesting new kosher MRE that is actually self-heating
(you don't need a microwave or anything else to heat it up) - I've tried
one and it tastes ok.  They can be found at http://www.labriutemeals.com

I know people who have taken them on airplanes without any problems with
the current security standards.

Josh Hosseinof


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:22:44 +0100
Subject: RE: Milk and Meat

In MJ v40n48, Irwin Weiss quoted a report about the US Food And 
Drug Administration proposing to spray meat products with the milk 
protein lactoferrin in order to fight pathogens such as E Coli, and 
then asked:

> Is this impermissible mixing of milk and meat? Is it ok since it is
> Pikuach Nefesh? Is it not really "milk"?

With regards to the Pikuach Nefesh [threat to life] aspect, is it
actually a threat to life not to treat meat in this way?  The meat is
not necessarily infected with pathogens, and proper storage and cooking
may prevent it from becoming so.  If there is a threat to life I would
be minded to think that it is not an immediate one.  Perhaps there isn't
even an issue of threat to life, as a piece of meat infected with E Coli
isn't life threatening if one doesn't eat it.

As for the milk issue, maybe an analogy can be taken from gelatine and
rennet, which are not considered meaty even though they are of animal
origin.  I believe this is because they have been processed to such an
extent that they are no longer recognisable as meat, and so lose their
meaty status.  (Why this doesn't work with gelatine from non-kosher
animals, I don't know.  After all, why doesn't the process that removes
a meaty status also remove a non- kosher status?)

With regards to rennet, I think it is a myth that cheese has to be
Jewish-made in order to ensure that there is no problem with meat/milk
mixtures.  The Shulchan Aruch in Yoreh Deah 115:2 is quite clear that
cheese made by non-Jews is forbidden by Rabbinic decree, even if it is
vegetarian cheese:

"The cheeses of non-Jews is forbidden for the reason that they stand
them in stomachs of their slaughter [i.e. animals they have killed],
which are neveilos [animals that have died other than by shechitah].
Even if they stood them in vegetable matter they are forbidden."  (The
Rema adds that the custom of not eating cheese made by a non-Jew should
not be broken.)

I presume that the word "stand" is used to mean the coagulation of the
milk to form cheese, and that milk is stood in stomachs as that is the
source of rennet.  I believe that standing in vegetable matter refers to
what we would call vegetarian cheese.

Apologies for the slight digression from Irwin Weiss's point, but the
point I am trying to make is that just as processing gelatine and rennet
removes their meaty status, perhaps the processing of lactoferrin
removes its milky status.

Immanuel Burton.


From: Carl Singer <csngr@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:30:22 -0400
Subject: A new Shabbos issue in hotels

I was in Boston this past Monday/Tuesday and stayed at a newer hotel
where I saw the following that might be an issue for Shabbos.  I am not
paskening, only making the list aware.

The heating / cooling system had a note to the effect that the system
would take 15 minutes to get back to your desired temperature because as
an energy saving measure, it slowed down when you were out of the suite
and only came back up to speed when you returned.  (Clearly a smart
energy savings idea considering that many hotel rooms are empty all day
as occupants are attending to business.)  Looking around I saw that
there were multiple sensors in the rooms - akin to those you may see
with a burgler alarm system.  I don't know if they were motion or
temperature or both - I suspect motion.

I imagine that this may be an issue on Shabbos.  And putting post-it
notes over the sensors or otherwise defeating them would also defeat
heating / cooling in your room -- hence the "easy" solution won't work.

Carl Singer


From: Aryeh Weil <theweils@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:30:50 +0300
Subject: Rabbi Avraham Magence zatzal

Dear Friends,

My father-in-law, Harav Avraham Magence zatzal, passed away on Shabbat
Parashat Re'eh.  He was an outstanding rav, mohel, shochet and melamed
in St. Louis for over fifty years.  The family would find great comfort
in hearing from people who can add to the anecdotal collection regarding
this great and pious man.  May Klal Yisrael know only of semachot

Rabbi Aryeh Weil


End of Volume 40 Issue 51