Volume 40 Number 64
                 Produced: Wed Sep 17 21:19:53 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
Bare Midriffs
         [Mike Gerver]
Be'er hagulah
         [Zev Sero]
Choosing within Halachic Requirements
         [Batya Medad]
         [Y. Askotzky]
Follow Halacha too far (2)
         [Richard Dine, <rubin20@...>]
Motion Sensors - A simple solution?,
         [Yehuda Landy]
Saying Kaddish
         [Shmuel Norin]
         [Gil Student]
Suit for goods Israelites took leaving Egypt (5)
         [Moshe Goldberg, Richard Dine, Gershon Dubin, Chaim Tatel,
Yehuda Landy]
Wearing Tefilin
When the "Simanim"?
         [Yisrael and Batya Medad]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:30:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia

I would like to thank all those who have contacted me about either systems
they can give me access to or commercial providers of shell access. I am
now following up with some of these leads.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:33:34 EDT
Subject: Bare Midriffs

Anonymous writes, in v40n60

      On more than one occassion unintentional bare midriffs are
      "flashed" in shule by women who apparently aren't wearing slips,
      etc.  and whose blouses don't tuck in.

I've been noticing this phenomenon, and trends in it, especially since
we made aliyah three years ago. Having a bare midriff is almost
universal in non-religious young women in Israel during the summer, of
course, but in the past year, especially, I have increasingly been
seeing it in modern Orthodox teenage girls, and recently even in girls
whom I would (on the basis of other criteria) normally classify as
haredi, at least in a sociological sense. I don't think these girls can
be doing this unintentionally. For one thing, the exposed area is very
well defined, and always the same, and shifts over the years with
changing fashion. (It used to include the navel, now it consists of a
region entirely below the navel, with the navel generally covered.) A
related phenomenon is having a narrow strip of underpants showing-- it's
always almost exactly a quarter of an inch, and brightly colored, so I
don't think this could be unintentional either. That fashion seems to
have evolved from the fashion of teenage boys (in the United States at
least) a few years ago, wearing their pants very low and having the top
of their underpants showing.

It seems bizarre that any Orthodox girl would dress like this, but I
guess it is not surprising that teenagers are more strongly influenced
by the fashions of their peers than by the dictates of their
parents. And "fashion" in this case includes not just other Orthodox
girls, but, at least to some extent, the non-religious world as
well. None of us is living in a hermetically sealed off box.

Maybe these girls would dress more modestly if they knew that the "riff"
in "midriff" (originally "mid-hriff") comes from the same Indo-European
root as "corpse."

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Zev Sero <zsero@...>
Subject: Re: Be'er hagulah

The introduction to the new Merkaz HaRav edition points out that in the
preface, the Maharal rhymes the title with `kulah' (`all of it'), thus
showing that he intended it to be pronounced `hagulah'.

A `gulah' is a round object (Zechariah 4:2).  In the case of a well, it
might be the stone covering it (cf Bereshit 29:2-3), or a bucket with
which one can draw water.  The intro seems to suggest that the title
should be understood as if it were `gulat habe'er', that the book is a
bucket with which one can draw water from the well of Torah, or that it
rolls away the stone covering the well (the criticisms of the Christian
polemicist to whom it is a response), thus enabling people to drink.


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:05:24 +0200
Subject: Re: Choosing within Halachic Requirements

      term) there are two opposing halachic requirements (saving a
      woman's life and touching a woman) and a jerk chooses the wrong
      one.  2) I am

pikuach nefesh=saving a life over-rides everything.

Unfortunately, many people don't know "halacha", and they guess wrong.
I used the word guess for a reason.  It is important to learn to
differentiate between mitzvot m'd'raita, halacha, chumrot, minhagim and
"advice."  With more knowledge there's less guessing.



From: Y. Askotzky <sofer@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:08:29 +0200
Subject: Coverage

> I would be far more concerned about a school where teachers indulge in
> such nasty lashon hora than I would a school where visitors dress
> stylishly, but not in line with "group norms".

I hear Andy's point about lashon harah very clearly but the point of the
poster was not someone dressing stylish but rather a woman dressing in a
clearly immodest manner- tight clothes and very provocative, more
befitting a night club than a Jewish school! (and a rebbitzin at that!)
His point was that lack of tzniyut is not only when arms, legs, etc.,
are revealed but even when they are covered.

kol tuv,
Rabbi Yerachmiel Askotzky, certified sofer & examiner
<sofer@...>  www.stam.net  1-888-404-STAM(7826)  718-874-8220


From: Richard Dine <richard.dine@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:00:42 -0400
Subject: Follow Halacha too far

Responding to: Eugene Bazarov <evbazarov@...>

One example of "Following Halachah too far" could be using a microscope
to inspect lulavim/etrogim for Sukkot, and perhaps bugs for Kashrut.
See Professor Daniel Sperber's excellent essay on the Bar Ilan website:

Richard Dine

From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:40:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Follow Halacha too far

>An example: when I was learning in E"Y there was a story/rumor
>that is probably (hopefully!) not true. There are certain people that
>take their chickens for a walk before shechting them to make sure the
>chickens do not have any broken bones. When we heard this story we all
>laughed.  Technically a person probably should make sure that the
>chicken does not have a broken bone, but somehow we have the feeling
>that this is "going too far.

The reason behind this is that in the small markets in Eretz Yisroel
have a recurring problem of Arab workers throwing boxes of chickens. the
Halacha is that a tied up animal that falls had a din of a treifa. Since
a box may have the din of being tied up, the birds are walked to make
certain they are not treifas. Not so funny after all.


From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:04:54 +0200
Subject: Re: Motion Sensors - A simple solution?,


	As mentioned already, it may not be such an easy thing to do. I
also suspect that the managment might pretend to be accomodating and
promise the world, but who is to guarantee that they actually
deactivated the sensors?

	Have k'sivah v'chasimah tovah.
	Yehuda Landy


From: <ENGINEERED@...> (Shmuel Norin)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:30:28 -0400
Subject: Saying Kaddish

I have another question about saying Kaddish.  In many schules, there is
some learning between Mincha and Marriv followed by the Rabbi's Kaddish.
Marriv follows immediately after this Kaddish.  My question is whether
this Kaddish should be said by one have Yahrzeit ending with Mincha or
by the person with a Yahrzeit starting with Marriv?

Shmuel Norin


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:58:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Sources?

In addition to the Gemara in Yevamos already cited, see Avodah Zarah
17b: "Whoever is involved in only Torah is as if he has no God".

Gil Student


From: Moshe Goldberg <mgold@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:45:43 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Re: Suit for goods Israelites took leaving Egypt

> From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
> >In light of the Forward article about the potential suit by
> > Egyptians for the goods the Israelites took when they left Egypt
> Could you fill us in on this article? I never heard about it. Are the
> egyptians really suing the Israelis?

Here are several articles about this, I am still not sure if the guy was
serious or trying some satire.

See especially the second article, by Moshe Kohn in the Jerusalem Post,
which gives a reference in the Midrash and Talmud to the same case brought
before Alexander the Great a few thousand years ago.





K'tiva Vachatima tova to all...

Moshe Goldberg

From: Richard Dine <richard.dine@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:12:57 -0400
Subject: Suit for goods Israelites took leaving Egypt

See the August 29 issue of the Forward. 

The article begins:  "A prominent Egyptian legal scholar is preparing a
lawsuit against Jews around the world over gold allegedly stolen in
biblical times during the Jewish exodus from Egypt. 
Nabil Hilmy, dean of the faculty of law at Egypt's Zagazig University,
announced his plan in the Egyptian government weekly, Al-Ahram Al-Arabi,
according to the Middle East Media Research Institute - known as MEMRI -
a group that specializes in translating articles in the Arab
media. Hilmy reportedly told Al-Ahram that if the story of the exodus is
to be believed, Jews fleeing Egypt "stole from the Pharaonic Egyptians
gold, jewelry, cooking utensils, silver ornaments, clothing, and more,
leaving Egypt in the middle of the night with all this wealth, which
today is priceless." 

Richard Dine

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:50:25 GMT
Subject: Suit for goods Israelites took leaving Egypt



From: Chaim Tatel <chaimyt@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:21:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: re: Suit for goods Israelites took leaving Egypt

Here are two articles on the subject:

The Exodus fraud
Posted: August 26, 2003
 2003 WorldNetDaily.com 


Jewish World Review Sept. 3, 2003 / 6 Elul, 5763 
A truly historic lawsuit 
By Rabbi Avi Shafran 

From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:16:34 +0200
Subject: Re: Suit for goods Israelites took leaving Egypt

Here are a few links




	Have a k'sivah v'chasimah tovah.
        Yehuda Landy


From: <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:27:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Wearing Tefilin

> 	In the context of a discussion about whether women may wear
> tefillin, Arukh haShulchan (Orakh Chaim 38) reasons that one should wear
> tefillin only when absolutely obligated to do so, since tefillin "require
> an extremely high degree of care in order to maintain the requirements of
> bodily cleanliness." He  posits  that the only reason one is permitted to
> wear tefillin at all is that there is an obligation (whether or not one is
> wearing tefillin) to maintain bodily cleanliness while reciting Shema and
> Shemoneh Esrei. 

Is there any indication anywhere that frum Jews hold like this 
opinion? I've yet to see anyone put on tefilin after Yishtabach and 
then take them off right after finishing Amidah.


From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 00:06:40 +0200
Subject: When the "Simanim"?

In the most recent weekly talk of Rav Mordecahi Eliyahu, reproduced in
his Kol Tzofayich 235, he discusses when to say the Simanim verses over
various fruits, etc. on the first night of Rosh Hashana which this year
is on Shabbat.

It's either immediately after Kiddush; after the Birkat Hamazon; or at
the meal's end.

The problems are: if immediately after Kiddush, the strictly speaking he
should make a Bracha Achrona, which we don't do.  If after Hamotzi, one
could fill oneself up and not enjoy the holiday meal.  If at the end,
since it is still within the meal, one doesn't make a blessing.

He suggests eating them at the very end of the meal or better, after
Birkat Hamazon and then he merits reciting additional opening and
closing blessings.

Yisrael Medad


End of Volume 40 Issue 64