Volume 40 Number 70
                 Produced: Tue Sep 23  6:36:10 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

The Bride giving a Ring to her Groom
         [Shlomo & Syma Spiro]
Equal Importance
         [Meir Possenheimer]
Hotels and Sensors
         [Steven White]
         [Boruch Merzel]
Kaddish (two comments)
         [Gershon Dubin]
Kashrut and Glass
Saying Kaddish at the Other Minyan
         [Steven White]
Sensors on Shabbat
         [Eli Turkel]
Specific Tehilim for unemployed
         [Frank Reiss]
Standards of Modesty
         [Yehuda Landy]
         [Avi Frydman]
Women talking to women
         [Alex Heppenheimer]


From: Shlomo & Syma Spiro <spiro@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:38:22 +0200
Subject: The Bride giving a Ring to her Groom

Regarding a bride giving a ring to the groom, for those who wished it I
used to give the option to give the ring to her chosen privately in the
yihud room just before I closed the door, or in public at the wedding
banquet--I would make a little ceremony then.


From: Meir Possenheimer <meir@...>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:18:40 +0100
Subject: Re: Equal Importance

> Ari Trachtenberg writes:
> Where exactly does our tradition say that the two sexes are equally
> important?  Seems to me that this is, ironically, just as "pandering to
> feminism" ...  or maybe the truth is that it is pandering to the 50% of
> the population that makes men's lives more meaningful, enjoyable, and
> comfortable ... is that really so bad?

Perhaps he would refer to Rav S R Hirsch's zt"l Horeb , translated by
Dayan Dr Grunfeld zt"l, where he will find the following (p 305):

"G-d has divided the sexes, giving each specific tasks in the fulfilment
of life. Both tasks, if fulfilled in purity, are equally sublime,
equally holy".

or to his chapter on "The Jewish Woman" in Judaism Eternal Vol 2 pp
90-96 where writes with reference to the female sex, inter alia:

"the Sages also attribute to it complete spiritual and intellectual
equality with the male"

both written long before the advent of "feminism!


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steven White)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:00:42 -0400
Subject: Hotels and Sensors

There are some other aspects of this problem to be considered.  As a
basis for the following, I am assuming that the question is strictly
whether the presence of the sensor(s) render(s) routine motions into a
pesik resha [inevitable outcome], or whether routine motions are eino
mitkaven [not intended].

First of all, if one is generally following R' Sh.Z. Auerbach (ztz"l)
concerning electricity, then the only d'oraita violations of concern are
the incandescent lights, if any, and the heating or air conditioning.
With respect to lights, in turn, I have never been in a hotel room where
all the lights could not be shut off manually, or where all the lights
were tied to a door sensor.  Thus, in practical terms, we are only
talking about heating and air conditioning.

Second, if one is talking about heat, either (a) the heat comes on, but
it's not really cold enough to care, or (b) it is cold enough to care.
In the case of (a), then, the heat is at most "lo ichpat lei" [he is
indifferent], or possibly "lo nicha lei" [he gets no benefit].  In the
case of (b), anyone may be considered a holeh she'en bo sakana [a sick
person not in imminent danger], which is inherently considered to be
"great need." If it is cold enough, it might even be (c) "yesh bo
sakana" [imminent danger].

If one is talking about air conditioning, correspondingly, (d) you don't
care (same as above), (e) nice but not essential (more problematic), or
(f) hot enough to be necessary, which would likely be considered a
sakana also.

Third, consider with respect to heat and air conditioning that one has
(probably infrared) sensors, and also a thermostat.  Both triggering the
sensors and triggering the thermostat are necessary conditions; neither
one is a sufficient condition.  Only both together turn on the unit.
One thus can strongly argue in that case that just triggering the
sensors creates a grama [delay], which turns a d'oraita violation into a

Fourth, even if one does not accept grama here, since no specific action
is done to trigger a melacha, then one probably at most has kil'achar
yad [done with the other hand; i.e., unusually], and certainly not
melechet machshevet [work done with intent].  This, again, turns a
d'oraita violation into a derabbanan.

In any case except possibly (e) above, or in any case R' Auerbach holds
is only derabbanan anyway, either grama or kil'achar yad make this a
derabbanan on a derabbanan.  In case (e), sufficiently good reason to be
in the hotel might be enough to trigger "great need."

Fifth, anything the hotel does for its own account, rather than yours,
is davar she'eno mitkaven (or if you're really savvy about how these
things work, at worst melacha she'eno tzricha l'gufa - work whose
product you do not need).  Again, these are derabbanan violations, which
in this case are derabbanan on a derabbanan.  (Note: this paragraph may
not apply in Israel or in a Jewish-owned facility.)

Put all of the above together, and I just don't think there's much to
worry about b'diaved, although naturally the more one can avoid even
these derabbanan-on-derabbanans, the better.

Finally, many of these infrared sensors work in combination with door
and window sensors, so that even with someone in the room, the heat and
air conditioning don't work if the door or window is open.  So if you
really don't want heat or air conditioning, you can probably open the
door, prop it open, go over to the window and open that, and then go
back and shut the door, and never have the heat or air conditioning go
on at all.

Steven White
Highland Park, NJ


From: <BoJoM@...> (Boruch Merzel)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:31:31 EDT
Subject: Re: Kaddish

<< Carl Singer wrote
       if someone who didn't attend the shiur walks in do they say

 I asked this question in reference to the Kaddish after the saying
 Korbanot, as in Shiloh and in most other places in Israel, the minyan
 davening starts not with Birchot Hashchar but with Hodo or Mizmor
 Chanukat Babayit.  The Rav said that even if you come in just as they
 are starting to say the Kaddish d'Rabanan, and you haven't recited
 anything, you join in. >

The Magen Avraham at the very beginning of Siman 234 of the Orach
Chayaim states: "If one says Ashrei (at mincha) by himself and
immediately afterwards a minyan assembles, (many)then will recite a
psalm and afterwards say Kaddish......and, similarly, when some are
learning in a shule when there is no minyan and only afterwards is a
minyan assembled in order to recite Kaddish (d'rabbanan), they are not
acting properly. Kal V'chomer (most certainly) this is improper (in the
reictal of Kaddiash d'rabbanan) for the main reason for reciting Kaddash
after Torah study is to sanctify The Name (of God) , therefore, 10 men
are required to have been present during the study period. "

In addition, the Orach Hashulchan, siman 55: 8 references the Rambam and
states: "It is clear from his words that only when 10 study together is
it permissible to recite this (Rabbanan) Kadish, which would exclude a
situation where less than 10 study together."

Boruch Merzel

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:02:45 -0400
Subject: Kaddish (two comments)

From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>

<<I would presume, then, based on this, that one can extrapolate 
from this case and say a Kaddish even if coming in at the very tail 
end of a Tefillah.  Anyone ordained out there who can confirm?>>

Not sure what authority ordination confers.

I asked about this and my LOR told me only to say kaddish when I
was davening with that minyan.



From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:50:38 EDT
Subject: Re: Kashrut and Glass

> doesn't this allow the non-kosher ingredients to get absorbed into the glass?

glass is non-absorbent, but can be etched with acid. wine and hot
water...are not acid.


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steven White)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:59:11 -0400
Subject: Saying Kaddish at the Other Minyan

I have the mesora [tradition] that all Kaddishin D'Rabbanan are to be
said, since they do not require an avel [mourner], and that the kaddish
after Alenu is always to be said, even in the absence of an avel and
even in a minyan none of whose members have lost a parent.  (The
Shaliach Tzibbur [prayer leader] then recites kaddish.)  Unless one is
from a community where only one person at a time recites kaddish, I
cannot see why one should not say kaddish whenever one can.

In this respect, I can't understand the comment suggesting that the
addition of the Kaddish D'Rabbanan between Minha and Arvit would be a
tircha d'tzibbura [stress to the congregation] in the absence of an
avel.  Surely, anyone would like another chance to do the mitzva of
answering "Yehay sh'may" (I mean this response as applied to the routine
case; I can easily think of occasions where the original comment would
apply on a one-off basis.)

Steven White
Highland Park, NJ


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:17:05 GMT
Subject: Sensors on Shabbat

In many alarm systems including home systems even when the sensors are
turned off control lights flicker when a person walks around the room.

Is this a problem since most people are usually not interested in the
flickering lights.

As I indicated above even in a home system there is no way to disable
the lights short of somehow turning off the main switch to the
alarm. The normal switch to disable the sensors still leaves the control
lights flickering.


From: Frank Reiss <freiss47@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Specific Tehilim for unemployed

Are there any specific Tehilim that people suffering from sudden and
recent, and prolonged unemployment should say. I am looking to start a
Chaburah of such people, and any supporters that would say these
Tehilim.  Please contact me with your comments.



From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:46:26 +0200
Subject: Re: Standards of Modesty

	If I may add to my previous post. The Igros Moshe can be found
in EH II reponsa 14. The question raised was whether it is permissible
to ride a crowded subway train or bus, being that contact with nearby
women is almost inevitable.

Rav Moshe rules that since the contact is inadvertant it does not
prohibited one from riding.  Regarding the problem of Hirhur (bad
thoughts), he rules that if one is going to work it is permissible.  If
the ride will result in something worse than hirhur than the perosn is
in a problem even if he is riding to work.

	A shanah Tovah to all.

															Yehuda Landy

> I would be a little more careful about drawing conclusions from
> this story. The issue here was whether or not it is permissible to ride
> a train where one will almost inevtiably be exposed to indecently
> dressed women. Rav Moshe if I recall correctly has a tshuvah where he
> explains why it would be permissible. I dont think he is in any way
> linient about what sections of a woman may be exposed. This is a case
> where a person must travel for work etc and has no other way to get
> there. I highly doubt that he would permit riding the train unecessarily
> or if there were other options available. I don't have an Igros Moshe
> handy, but I'm not sure that your quote "who said that New Yorkers are
> accustomed to this environment" is accurate.


From: Avi Frydman <frydman@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:26:28 GMT
Subject: Ushpizot

What is the experience of my fellow m-jers with having USHPIZOT--female
"guests" in the sukkah?  Which women are used, if any, and what symbols
might be appropriate for decorations?


From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:55:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Women talking to women

In MJ 40:67, David Prins <prins@...> wrote:

>I would be delighted if any reader (a) can come up with any more than
>I have and/or (b) if anyone knows of any source that addresses this
>Very crudely, I can link these conversations as follows: 1 and 2 are
>about who will spend the night with a man for the purpose of having
>a child.  3 is about preserving the life of a baby.  4 also leads to
>the birth of offspring.  4 is also linked to 1 because Ruth and Orpah
>are descendants of Moab.

By searching on the words "vatomer" or "vatedabber," I found several
other examples:

5. Midwife assuring Rachel that she's borne a son (Bereishis 35:17)
6. Women assuring Pinchas' wife that she's borne a son (I Shmuel 4:20)
7. Two women arguing about a disputed baby (I Melachim 3:22). [This
conversation takes place before King Shlomo, and the previous verses
have the first woman speaking to him; but in this particular verse, the
two women are addressing each other. This makes it different than
conversations such as the daughters of Tzelafchad, where we don't find
them speaking one to the other.]
8. A Jewish maidservant telling her mistress, Naaman's wife, about
Elisha being able to cure her sick husband (II Melachim 5:3).

Nos. 5 through 7 certainly relate to the theme you mention, in that they
all relate to a mother's longing to have a child. No. 8 concerns
Naaman's cure from tzaraat, after which his skin is described as being
"like that of a small child" (ibid. verse 14), but it seems to be a bit
of a stretch to fit that into this framework.

Kol tuv,


End of Volume 40 Issue 70