Volume 40 Number 74
                 Produced: Wed Sep 24 22:04:37 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Absolute and Relative Ervah
         [Yehonatan Chipman]
Airplane eggs (2)
         [Zev Sero, Janet Rosenbaum]
Kreplach On Erev Yom Kippur (5)
         [<LennyLevy@...>, Zev Sero, Gershon Dubin, S Wise,
Mekach Ta'ut - A Woman Who Hides Her Lamdanut (2)
         [Jeanette Friedman, Gil Student]
Sensors on Shabbat
         [Yehuda Landy]
Tashlikh on Shabbat
         [Gershon Dubin]
Ushpizot (3)
         [Stephen Phillips, Harold Greenberg, Zev Sero]


From: Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:51:08 +0200
Subject: Re:  Absolute and Relative Ervah

Just to clarify the above discussion: I can think of at least four
different kinds of situations in halakhah, to each one of which
different standards of dress apply:

1.  How one should dress for Tefillah (Shemonah esreh).  Here the
requirements are based upon a concept of dignity and respect towards the
Shekhina, and even the most MINIMAL standard certainly requires both men
and women to cover their torsos, most probably at least part of their
arms, perhaps all of the leg, etc.  Not to mention the basic
"lekhathila" standard of "standing before a king."

2.  How one should dress for oneself (and for others of one's own sex?)
so as to say Keriat Shema and, for that matter, any berakhot.  Here the
standard is extremely minimal, as I noted in an earlier posting.

3.  How one should dress for others of opposite sex to say berakhot in
one's presence, particualr in the case of women before men.  Here social
norms play some role, but there's some dispute as to how much.  This has
been the main subject of this thread but, as I said, it's only one of
several categories.

4.  How one should dress in public, when one will be seen be others.
simply so as not to be a "stumbling block" to others by one's immodest
dress.  The standards here are similar to (3), but not necessarily

   Yehonatan Chipman


From: Zev Sero <zsero@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:55:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Airplane eggs

Shelly Shalev <shshalev@...>

> I recently flew on a morning El-al flight. The glatt kosher meal
> included an omelette (of sorts). The paper with the hechsher (which
> also mentioned that the roll was mezonot, etc.) said that - the
> eggs had undergone a specific processing to insure that there would
> be no problem of "linat leilah" - which I take to mean - being held
> overnight. I don't remember ever hearing about this particular
> halachic concern. Does anyone have any information on this and why
> it is applicable only to eggs?  

It comes from Niddah 17a, and is cited as practical law in (among other
places) Shulchan Aruch Harav, Hil Shemirat Guf Vanefesh 7.

Peeled garlic, onion, and eggs should not be left overnight; this only
applies if they are completely peeled, so, e.g., leaving a small piece
of eggshell in a whole vat of egg salad is sufficient.  It's also
generally considered not to apply to the powdered form of these foods.

From: Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:50:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Airplane eggs

It is also applicable to peeled onions and I think garlic.  You can see
the basic parameters in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, but the basis for it
goes back to the gemara.  The concern is "ruach ra" infecting foods.
Not everyone treats it as a requirement.



From: <LennyLevy@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:52:23 EDT
Subject: Kreplach On Erev Yom Kippur

Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
> For the first time this year I have heard of a custom to eat
> kreplach on erev Yom Kippur.  Does anyone know of a reason?

There is a minhag to eat kreplach three times a year. Erev Yom Kippur,
Hoshanah Rabba and Purim.

I have heard that his is related to Klopping (Banging) . On Erev Yom
Kippur we Klop al Het, on Hoshannah Rabbah we Klop Hoshanos and on Purim
we Klop Haman.

But what does that have to do with Kreplach?

My father O"H explained that on Yom Tov we are required to eat a K'Zayis
of meat as part of the Mitzva of Simchas (Rejoicing on)Yom Tov. There is
no Simcha without meat.

These 3 holidays are important Yomim Tovim, yet melacha (those
activities which are prohibited on full fledged holidays) is permitted
on those days.

For this reason, explained my dad, we eat meat to mark that it is Yom
Tov but we cover the meat with dough (kreplach) to indicate that these
days are not at the same level of yom tov as are those days when Melacha
is prohibited.

Ksivah V'Chasima Tovah to all

From: Zev Sero <zsero@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:04:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreplach On Erev Yom Kippur

Because the meat (gevurah) is hidden by the dough (chesed), as we hope
that our sins will be hidden and covered up.  For the same reason the
custom is to eat them on Hoshana Rabba, when the final judgment is
given.  On Purim they are eaten because the miracle was hidden.

And of course there is the saying, which is more in the nature of a
mnemonic rather than a reason, that we eat kreplach when we beat al
chet, hoshanot, and Haman.

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:57:34 GMT
Subject: Kreplach On Erev Yom Kippur

The idea is just as the filling is "hidden" so should our aveiros be.

The usual formulation is that one eats them when you "klop" (bang)--Al
chet on Erev Yom Kippur, Hoshanos on Hoshana Rabba, and Haman on Purim.


From: <Smwise3@...> (S Wise)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:21:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreplach On Erev Yom Kippur

It's an old custom and I also am not sure of its origin, but likewise we
eat kreplach on Hoshana Rabbah and Purim.  I think the kreple symbolizes
the two types of karbanos--meal and animal.


From: <Aronio@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:36:01 EDT
Subject: Kreplach On Erev Yom Kippur

There is a custom to eat kreplach on days that we klap:

1) Erev Yom Kippur - we klop al chait on Yom Kippur
2) Hoshana Rabba - we klop the hoshaynes
3) Purim - we klop for Haman's name (not clap, but klop)

I once heard the reason that we eat kreplach on erev yom kippur is the
symbolism of what a kreple looks like -- it is meat surrounded and
covered by dough, i.e. is is black (sin) covered by white (purity).

May all Jews around the world merit a ksiva vachasima tovah, as
symbolized by kreplach

: )


From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:38:53 EDT
Subject: Re: Mekach Ta'ut - A Woman Who Hides Her Lamdanut

      I was wondering in general if a woman kept from her husband the
      fact that she was learned, would he then have any grounds to claim
      that the marriage was Mekach Ta'ut.

And if a man isn't what a woman expected, can that be Mekach Ta'ut, too?

jeanette friedman

From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:59:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Mekach Ta'ut - A Woman Who Hides Her Lamdanut

Yael wrote:

>I was wondering in general if a woman kept from her husband the fact
>that she was learned, would he then have any grounds to claim that the
>marriage was Mekach Ta'ut. I would appreciate insights of this issue.

Definitely not. In order for a defect to invalidate a marriage it has
to be severe. See R' Hershel Schachter's article at
http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2001/rsch_nissuin.html and R' J.
David Bleich's titled "Kiddushei Taut" at

Gil Student


From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:24:43 +0200
Subject: Re: Sensors on Shabbat

 From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
> In many alarm systems including home systems even when the sensors are
> turned off control lights flicker when a person walks around the room.
> Is this a problem since most people are usually not interested in the
> flickering lights.

	This is what I was referring to in an earlier post. Even when
the alarm is not activated the sensors are still operating. Anytime one
crosses the infrared beam the light will flicker. Most probably one
walking around the room is not interested whether or not the lights
flicker, but this definitely a case of p'sik reisha, since the result is

	When installing such a system in a house I would recommend
contacting one of the respective institutions which deal with technology
and halacha issues to find out what can be done.

Yehuda Landy


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:01:32 GMT
Subject: Tashlikh on Shabbat

From: Ken Bloom <kabloom@...>
<<Universally, Tashlich is done on only the first day of Rosh HaShanna>>

Never say "always", "never" or "universally" <g>.

Many Chasidim have the custom of saying tashlich on the day of Aseres
Yemei Teshuva that you say the selicha of 13 Midos. If you go to the end
of Bay Parkway in Brooklyn, for example, at about 6:00 PM on that day,
you will see hundreds of people saying tashlich, as far as the eye can

Others use any part of AYT as make-up for missing tashlich, whether for
lack of time on Rosh Hashana or lack of access to water.  I take my
family, usually, on Erev Yom Kipur, and we are far from the only people



From: Stephen Phillips <stephenp@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:02 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Ushpizot

> From: Avi Frydman <frydman@...>
> What is the experience of my fellow m-jers with having USHPIZOT--female
> "guests" in the sukkah?  Which women are used, if any, and what symbols
> might be appropriate for decorations?

I'm not sure that "Ushpizot" would be at all appropriate in an Orthodox
setting. Apart from the fact that there is no tradition of welcoming
Ushpizot, women anyway are not obligated to sit in the sukkah (and
Sefardi women are, in may communities, not permitted to do so).

I back up my case by the following URL 

which is a guide to "Ushpizot". Browsing the web site it seems that all
the "Rabbis" who write for it are women!

Stephen Phillips.

From: Harold Greenberg <harold.greenberg@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:32:01 +0200
Subject: Ushpizot

The question is asked - What is the experience of my fellow m-jers with
having USHPIZOT--female "guests" in the sukkah?  Which women are used,
if any, and what symbols might be appropriate for decorations?

My wife, Sarah, is researching this subject.  Please find below the
results of her research to date-

Many Judaic traditions originated in medieval times through the
teachings of rabbis steeped in Kabbalah. A special mystical recitation,
derived from the Zohar (section Emor), is repeated each night of Succot
to invite one of seven Biblical guests or ushpizin (Aramaic), to rejoice
with us in our Succah. The men, who represent spiritual and moral
attributes of God, are Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron,
David.  The rabbis of the Talmud, in Megilla 14a, list seven women who
were Biblical prophetesses: Sarah, Miriam, Devorah, Hannah, Avigail,
Hulda, Esther.

HaRaMak, Rabbi Moses ben Jacob Cordovero, in 16th century Safed,
associated each of these women as well with the spiritual attributes or
'sefirot' of the kabbalah.  According to an ancient tradition, recorded
in the 17th century by talmudist and kabbalist Rabbi Menachem Azariah da
Fano of Italy, these seven prophetesses should also be invited into the
succah as ushpizot.

Eilat, Israel

From: Zev Sero <zsero@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:10:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Ushpizot

You can invite them, but will they come?

Seriously, we have it on good authority that the seven ushpizin visit
every Jew's sukkah.  Some families or communities have traditions
telling them about other invisible guests, e.g. deceased parents and
grandparents at a wedding, or the Lubavitcher Rebbes, who told their
chassidim that they would visit them together with the traditional
ushpizin.  But do you have any basis for expecting your `ushpizot' to be
visiting you?  If not, then isn't inviting them an empty charade, and an
insult to your actual guests, visible and not?


End of Volume 40 Issue 74