Volume 40 Number 81
                 Produced: Thu Oct  9  6:13:28 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

ATID Book Launching
         [R. Jeffrey Saks]
Challos for Yom Tov
         [Perets Mett]
eating kreplach
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Halla, round or long
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
Kreplach--and Round Challah
         [Stan Tenen]
Prophetesses as Ushpizot
         [Michael Kahn]
Round Challah
Sephardi Women and Sitting in Sucah
         [Stephen Phillips]
         [Joel Rich]
Status of Havdalah Berakhot
         [Daniel Alexander]
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
Tashlich on Shabbat
         [Akiva Miller]
Times for selichot
         [Joshua Adam Meisner]
         [Mark Symons]
Yizkor in Sephardic Shuls
         [Joshua Hosseinof]


From: R. Jeffrey Saks <atid@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:06:27 +0200
Subject: ATID Book Launching

We would like to extend this invitation to Mail-Jewish readers who may
be visiting Jerusalem during Sukkot (and of course to those of us in
Israel year-round!). Shanah Tova!

Please join us for an Erev Iyyun and "Book Launching" to mark ATID's
publication of
Sunday, October 12, 2003 (Chol ha-Moed Sukkot) at 8:00 PM
Hosted by the Orthodox Union Israel Center
22 Keren HaYesod St., Jerusalem

--Rabbi Chaim Brovender, President, ATID:
"Reflections on the Relationship Between Teaching and Learning"
--"Book Review" & Discussion with Authors and Editors
--Refreshments and Musical Entertainemnt in the Israel Center Sukkah

At the Erev Iyyun WISDOM FROM ALL MY TEACHERS, along with other titles
from Urim Publications, will be available for purchase at discounted
prices. To order on line, view sample chapters, Table of Contents, and
author bios, visit: www.atid.org

Contributing Authors: R. Hayyim Angel, Dr. Steve Bailey, R. Yitzchak
Blau, R. Chaim Brovender, Erica Brown, R. Shalom Carmy, Dr. Yoel
Finkelman, R. Asher Friedman, Dr. Beverly Gribetz, R. Norman Lamm, R.
Aharon Lichtenstein, Gilla Rosen, R. Gidon Rothstein, R. Doniel
Schreiber, R. Moshe Simkovich, Dr. Dodi F.Tobin, Yael Unterman, R.
Avraham Walfish, Yael Wieselberg, Dr. Joel B. Wolowelsky. Edited by R.
Jeffrey Saks and Prof. Susan Handelman. Published by ATID and Urim
Publications (hardcover, 399 pages).

For details contact ATID at 02-567-1719 or <atid@...>


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:28:05 +0100
Subject: Challos for Yom Tov

From: <FriedmanJ@...>
> Why are challahs round? because it takes too long to make braided ones
> for yom tov.

While this is undoubtedly true, it somewhat misses the point!

How about first asking the question "why do we plait challos for

Traditionally challos are made with six plaits (braids), so that the two
challos we use for lechem mishne contain between them 12 plaits. These
correpsond to the twelve loaves of the lechem haponim (showbread) which
formed part of the shabbos ritual in the Beis hamikdosh. Those who
follow the Arizal take this to its extreme and actually use twelve
loaves/challos for hamoitsi on Shabbos.

On Yom Tov there is no corresponding reason to have twelve of
anything. So there is no reason to have plaited challos in the first
place. The custom of plaiting the Shabbos challos (which is not
universal anyway) really has no relevance to Yom tov.

So while it is true that plaited challos for Yomtov would be a huge
burden on commercial bakers, there is in fact no reason to plait them in
the first place.

Gmar Chathimo Toivo

Perets Mett


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 10:10:51 -0400
Subject: eating kreplach

As I recall, the custom of eating kreplech is for 3 days- Erev Yom
Kippur, Purim, and Hoshana Rabba.  The alleged source was the "Aha!"
factor of non-jewish bosses, meaning that the days were "yom tov" but
still permitted to work on, and the non-Jewish boss might see the Jew
eating meat, question why, and on being told that it's a holiday would
than demand that the Jew work on all the holidays.  (Obviously, this
applied at a time when meat was rarely eaten) Ergo, the resulting
takkana was to eat the required Yom Tov meat in a "hidden" way, not
immediately obvious.

Shana Tova
Yossi Ginzberg


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:08:02 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Halla, round or long

I saw an explanation why the Shabbat halla is long but the Yom Tov halla
is round. For kabbala reasons, one should put 12 breads on the Shabbat
table at each meal (if they are small, one could finish them at seuda
shlishit or seuda reveit), like on the holy table in the Temple. Since
this is not easy for everyone, 2 long hallot take the place of the
12. See the song by the Ari'zl "azamer leshvahin" - towards the end
"vavin titkatar". But on Yom Tov 2 are enough, so we use the round


From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:39:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Kreplach--and Round Challah

Actually, the reason for both the braided and round challah is

A braided challah mimics the way Torah may have been woven (the root of
"b'reshit" is "reshet", too).

When you turn the braiding inside-out (mathematically), you get what's
known as an "umbilic toroid", or a torus knot.  This matches the form of
the round challah.

The braided process corresponds to the ritual year.  The round
corresponds to the whole culmination and re-start of the year.  This
exactly parallels the mathematical forms -- but please, even I don't
dare to try to describe this here in writing. <smile> If anyone would
like to see graphic examples of this, ask and I'll point you to them.

L'shana tova tikatevu,
Good Shabbos,


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:56:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Prophetesses as Ushpizot

>According to an ancient tradition, recorded in the 17th century by
>talmudist and kabbalist Rabbi Menachem Azariah da Fano of Italy, these
>seven prophetesses should also be invited into >the succah as ushpizot.

Do you know where this is written?


From: <Smwise3@...>
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 11:48:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Round Challah

Then what is the explanation why homebakers bake round?  Apparently,
there were people baking at home before there were bakeries, and the
tradition goes back far.

And why were there that many more challos necessary for Rosh Hashanah
than other yomim tovim?



From: Stephen Phillips <stephenp@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Sephardi Women and Sitting in Sucah

> From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
> Stephen Phillips wrote
>       Apart from the fact that there is no tradition of welcoming
>       Ushpizot, women anyway are not obligated to sit in the sukkah (and
>       Sefardi women are, in may communities, not permitted to do so).
> Could you please provide sources prohibiting Sephardic women to sit in
> the Sukkah. As far as I am aware, they may not make a bracha, but I have
> never heard of an issur to sit in the Sukkah.

You are quite right and I am quite wrong. My apologies. Indeed, I
checked in the Yalkut Yoseph and it seems that it is praiseworthy for a
woman to want to eat in the Sukkah.

Stephen Phillips.


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:29:06 EDT
Subject: Slichot

I am out of town and said slichot at a minyan after dawn but before
sunrise - I noted some people were wearing talit and tfillin, some just
tallit and some neither.  Any sources on this? would it be different
after sunrise? Any issue of different practices in the same minyan?

Is saying or not saying machnisei rachamim an individual or
congregational choice?  What is the actual practice in the communities

Gmar Chatimah tova
Joel Rich


From: Daniel Alexander <jane21267@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:00:07 +0000
Subject: Status of Havdalah Berakhot

I was puzzling over how to categorise the berakhot of Havdalah as per
the (generally accepted) categories of the Rambam.

Borei Peri Hagafen and Borei Minei Besamim are clear enough: they're

But what about Borei Meorei Ha'esh. Is that a Birkat Nehenin? Presumably
not: we don't normally bless lights or fires before using them. In which
case is it a birkat shevach? But again, we don't normally say it when
seeing a fire (whereas the berakhah on eg the rainbow we do every time
we see a rainbow). So is it a birkat mitzvah? But which mitzvah - is
there a mitzvah to see a havdalah candle, and if so, from where? (and
anyway if it's mitzvah, why isn't the asher kiddeshanu formula used). In
that connection, I wonder what the status of looking at your fingernails
is: is it an act over which we are saying a berakhah like the raising of
one's hands after netilat yadayim, or is it just minhag?

And what about "Hamavdil bein Kodesh Lechol" - again, is that shevach,
or mitzvah? Neither quite seems to fit.

- Daniel Alexander


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:54:42 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Tashlich

The Sefaradi minhag is to say Tashlich on Shabbat, see Kaf Hahyim
#583/31 where he explains Tashlich from the Kabbala. He lived in the old
city of Jerusalem, no problem of reshut harabim as it is walled, and
there is no river nearby. I also live in a non-river/sea place, and we
say Tashlich at the outside sink every year. When on Shabbat, we pray
Minha Gedola and Tashlich and then have Seuda Shilishit.


From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:42:56 GMT
Subject: re: Tashlich on Shabbat

Regarding saying Tashlich on Shabbos, Baruch Schwartz quotes the Shevut
Yaakov in MJ 40:77: <<< Where did anyone get the notion that they should
not go there on Shabbat? What risk of violating a prohibition is there?
Even if the river is located in a place where it is forbidden to carry
things on Shabbat, so what? Let them go without carrying anything! >>>

I do not understand this at all. Did the Shevut Yaakov know the text of
Tashlich by heart? Does he expect *us* to know it by heart? Of course we
must bring a book along with us to the river!

Even if his Tashlich was only a single pasuk, did he expect us to
memorize it? I honestly don't understand his point.

Akiva Miller


From: Joshua Adam Meisner <jam390@...>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:27:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Times for selichot

	What are the laws regulating the time that selichot should/can
be said during the season of the yamim nora'im?  The Mishnah B'rurah
(581:1) says that the end of the night is the ideal time, because then
is an "eit ratzon", a time of Divine goodwill.  However, what is the
status of saying selichot a) immediately after chatzot ha-layla
(halachic midnight - ~1 am in NY) b) after sunrise (e.g., 7 am) c)
before chatzot ha-layla (e.g., 10 pm) d) later in the daytime of the
proper day (e.g., 2:30pm)?

- Josh


From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Subject: Re: Ushpizin

> From: <Brikspartzuf@...>
> ...the Ushpizin are not physical guests!  They represent the spiritual
> Merkavot that Avraham, Yitzchak, Yaakov, Moshe, Aharon, and David
> symbolize... .  Yaakov represents the Midah of Tiferet or present time
> conciousness ...  Aharon represents the Midah of Hod or splendor and
> esotericsm.

Where did you find this translation of Tiferet? Kaplan calls it
Harmony. He also describes Hod as Empathy (which I haven't seen anywhere

Mark Symons
Melbourne, Australia


From: Joshua Hosseinof <jh@...>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 09:32:54 -0400
Subject: Yizkor in Sephardic Shuls

I am interested to know how Sephardic shuls, either in Israel or the
United States handle the issue of Yizkor on the days.  In our Sephardic
congregation in Teaneck NJ we have a rather mixed membership.  Virtually
all the husbands in the membership are Sephardim, and the wives are
almost exclusively Ashkenazic.  Additionally, some of our members are
Ashkenazic on both the husband and wife side.

As a result, we try to accomodate the wishes of many of our members who
feel that Yizkor is an important part of the Yom tov and Yom Kippur
services.  The question is - what do other Sephardic shuls do regarding
Yizkor.  So far I have heard of 4 options:

1. Not say it at all - but anyone who wants can say a "Hashkava" when 
they get an aliya.
2. Say it the same way as Ashkenazim
3. Say it the same way as Ashkenazim, but after Musaf
4. Say Yizkor before Musaf, BUT - do not have the non-Yizkor people 
leave,  say the Sephardic Hashkava text for individual people, and say 
the E-l Maley Rachamim for the Israeli wars and the Holocaust.

I am curious to know especially how it is handled in Israeli Sephardic

Josh Hosseinof


End of Volume 40 Issue 81