Volume 40 Number 87
                 Produced: Thu Oct 16  5:33:23 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airplane eggs (2)
         [Zev Sero, Yehuda Landy]
Alenu backwards?
         [Irwin Weiss]
ArtScroll in Israel
         [Tzadik Vanderhoof]
ArtScroll Machzor
         [Martin D Stern]
ArtScroll Machzor for Succot
         [Tzvi Briks]
Consistency in Psak
         [Frank Silbermann]
Drisha Women's Hoshana Raba Tefillah; Classes and Lectures
         [Freda B Birnbaum]
Golden Calf Episode-Rings
         [Joel Rich]
Kreplach erev Yom Kippur
         [Shlomo Pick]
Status of Havdalah Berakhot (2)
         [Ezriel Krumbein, Alan Rubin]
Wine touched by non-shabbat-observant Jew
         [Martin D Stern]


From: Zev Sero <zsero@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 05:41:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Airplane eggs

R Davidovich <rdavidovich@...> wrote:

>> From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
>> According to the Gemara, anyone eating peeled garlic or onions, or
>> shelled eggs that have remained overnight is endangering himself. The
>> Gemara's language is "damo berosho", literally "his blood is upon his
>> head".

> Would someone please provide the reference to the gemara that says this?
> I had always been under the impression that it wasn't a gemara but
> rather a statement from R'Yehuda HaChossid in Sefer Chassidim.

The reference was given several issues ago - Niddah 13a.
See Igrot Moshe vol 7, who raises the possibility that the word `eggs'
does not appear in all versions of the text.

From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:38:43 +0200
Subject: Re: Airplane eggs

	The source is Nidah 17a.
	Wishng all a chag kasher v'sameach.
			Yehuda Landy


From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:35:32 -0400
Subject: Alenu backwards?

We had dinner tonight next door with our Chassidic neighbors. He told me
that they have a minhag that on Hoshanna Rabba, after Shacharit, they
come home and eat a meat meal in the sukkah.  Then, they say Alenu in
the Sukkah 7 times forwards and 7 times backwards, alternating. (that
is, they say the words backwards, they don't stand in any particular

This perhaps the strangest minhag of which I have ever heard. He was
serious. I asked what the derivation was and he did not know, except to
say that is what his Rabbi does and, when the Rabbi was asked (R.
Menachem Goldberger) he just says that that is what his Rebbe does.  So,
has anyone here this Minhag or an understanding of from whence it comes?
The only prayer I could think of that we say forwards and backwards is
the verse from Birkat Halvana.



From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
Subject: Re: ArtScroll in Israel

ArtScroll has a well-known policy of writing its siddurim and machzorim
exclusively for Chutz L'Aretz.  Nothing that occurs only in Eretz
Yisroel (such as Simchas Torah on Shabbos or 3-day Purim) is included,
nor is any mention made of nusachos that are particular to Eretz Yisroel
(such as duchaning every day, omitting "Baruch Hashem L'Olom" in Marriv,
or saying Ein Kelokeinu at the end of Shacaharis in Nusach Ashkenaz).

I have not heard any reliably accurate explanation for this.  It could
be for simplicity reasons (why confuse the vast majority of users with
information that is not relevant to them) , for political reasons
(appeasing the anti-zionists) or for some complex business reason (not
competing with Israeli siddur publishers).


From: <MDSternM7@...> (Martin D Stern)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:18:49 EDT
Subject: Re: ArtScroll Machzor

<< If I'm not mistaken the Art Scroll Succot/Simchat Torah Machzor doesn't 
have Simchat Torah on Shabbat.  >>

Artscroll is aimed at Diaspora communities in which, on our calendars,
Simchat Torah can never fall on Shabbat. Originally it was never
celebrated in Erets Yisrael which used a three yearly cycle of Torah
reading and it is only through the influence of immigrating Diaspora
Jews (many centuries ago) that it has displaced the Torah mandated
festival of Shmini Atseret which has a completely different tone -
Kohelet, Geshem and, in many communities, Yizkor. The resulting
combination has been infelicitous to say the least from my experience.

    Martin D Stern


From: <Brikspartzuf@...> (Tzvi Briks)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:55:00 EDT
Subject: Re: ArtScroll Machzor for Succot

I recommend the Machzor Yerushalayim because even though you may have to
look around the Machzor to identify the Tefillot, it has the 3 Regalim
in one light thin compendium.  It certainly makes Jewish life easier.

Tzvi Briks


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 06:43:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:  Consistency in Psak

>> The gemara says somewhere that, roughly translated, "Those who follow
>> the chumras [stringencies] of Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai are fools."
>> Sorry I don't have the exact source for this passage.
>> Also, on the flip side, the gemara follows up and also says, again
>> roughly translating without the source in front of me, "Those who follow
>> the kulas [leniencies] of Beis Hillel and Beis Shamai are heretics."

The consensus of this list is that the gemarah is calling for
consistency, which leads me to a corrollary question.  Suppose one rabbi
has answered my halachic questions over the years, but now he has moved
on, say, to a shul in another city and my shul now has a new rabbi to
answer my halachic questions.

Assuming that I now put my halachic questions to the new rabbi, does
consistency require me to revisit all the questions that I asked of the
first rabbi?

Also, suppose I am attending a shir from a visiting rabbi who is world
reknown in a particular field of expertise, and a practical question on
the topic occurs to me, which he ansers.  Am I allowed to rely on his
opinion, or am I obligated to rely on my regular posek for _all_ my
practical questions (and let him decide whether he feels the need to
consult someone with more expertise)?

Please note that neither of these questions involve "rabbi shopping"
(where one asks one rabbi after another until one finds ones a rabbi who
delivers the desired answer).

Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Subject: Drisha Women's Hoshana Raba Tefillah; Classes and Lectures 

I've just received this announcement from Drisha and been asked to
publicize it.  Their classes and other activities are high-quality and I'm
pleased to do so.

Freda Birnbaum

Women's Tefillah at Drisha on Hoshana Raba
Drisha Institute for Jewish Education will have women's tefillah on
Hoshana Raba, Friday, October 17 at 9:00 a.m. Women are invited to
participate in this moving service. Please bring your own lulav and
etrog, as well as aravot.

Two short courses begin immediately after Simchat Torah:
The Laws of Bishul (Cooking) on Shabbat, with Daniel Reifman, begins on
Monday, October 20 from 6:00 - 7:30 p.m. and runs for eight weeks. From
stirring a pot of soup to making a cup of tea, bishul (cooking) is among
the most frequently encountered areas of hilkhot Shabbat. This
advanced-level course will cover Talmudic and rabbinic texts relevant to
bishul, with an emphasis on methodology and practical application.
Register online  http://www.drisha.org/programs/straus_short.htm or
sample the first class and register in-person that evening.

Women and Torah Reading, with Jonathan Stein, begins on Tuesday, October
21 from 7:45 - 9:15 p.m. and runs for five weeks. May women participate
in the reading of the Torah? Can they receive aliyot or layn? What does
kevod hatzibbur (the dignity of the congregation) really mean? This
course, open to women and men, will be devoted to an in-depth
exploration of these and related topics as students aim to understand
the halakhic issues behind a practice that has been taken up by several
new minyanim. Register online or at Drisha.
http://www.drisha.org/programs/straus_short.htm or sample the first
class and register in-person that evening.

Isaiah Gafni will deliver The Leiser and Mina Presser Memorial Lecture
at Drisha Institute for Jewish Education on Thursday, October 23 at 7:00
p.m. The topic is "The Rabbinization of Jewish History: Talmudic Images
of the Past." The lecture is free and open to women and men.

Menahem Ben-Sasson will be the speaker at The Maidi Katz Memorial
Lecture Series on The Jewish-Muslim Encounter in a Millennium
Perspective. The first lecture, "The Intellectual Revolution of Oriental
Jewry," will take place on Thursday, November 13 at 7:00 p.m. The second
lecture, "Jewish in Medieval Courts and Palaces," will be on Thursday,
November 20 at 7:00 p.m. Both lectures are free and open to women and

Winter Week of Learning - December 23, 24, 25 - Peshat and Derash: Does
the Bible Mean What it Says? - Watch for details on the Drisha website
www.drisha.org <http://www.drisha.org/> .


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 05:48:39 EDT
Subject: Golden Calf Episode-Rings

<<  > From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
 > In the golden calf episode, it is pretty clear that both men
 > and women contributed their earrings and noserings.

 If you look into Rav Shimon Schwab's approach to the episode of the
 golden calf (Mayain Bais Hashoavah, p. 224 d"h "VeYisporku") the only
 reason that the men wore earrings was due to the fact their ears had
 heard the first two commandments from Hashem Himself.  To commemorate
 this tremendous occasion they decorated and adorned their ears.  This
 was why the men sinned so greatly (Shemos 33:30) in donating those very
 earrings to the golden calf.  Perhaps this is why men stopped wearing
 earrings, while women - who did not sin at the golden calf - are still
 privileged to wear earrings.

 Yosef Posen  >>

Interesting interpretation. Do you think this was a tradition that R'
Schwab received from his Rebbeim or that he couldn't accept that men had
wore jewelery on an ongoing basis.  What do the historical records of
those times tell us of men wearing jewelery?(I have no idea but it would
be interesting if not compelling)

Gmar Tov,
Joel Rich


From: Shlomo Pick <picksh@...>
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:32:47 +0200
Subject: Kreplach erev Yom Kippur

I recall hearing another reason for the kreplach on erev Yom Kippur: not
because of the kloppin of al chet, but because there is a custom to flog
after the mincha service, something I have seen practiced here in Bnei
Brak. It's a real klopping or hocking, similar to that of the hoshana.


From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:57:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Status of Havdalah Berakhot

>From: Daniel Alexander <jane21267@...>
>I was puzzling over how to categorise the berakhot of Havdalah as per
>the (generally accepted) categories of the Rambam.
>But what about Borei Meorei Ha'esh. Is that a Birkat Nehenin? Presumably
>not: we don't normally bless lights or fires before using them. In which
>case is it a birkat shevach?

See Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 298:4

One does not make the blessing over the candel until they benefit from
it's light this means that they must be close enough to it that they
will be able to distinguish between a coin from this country and a coin
from another country.

Clearly this follows your designation of birchas hanehinin.

Kol Tov

From: alan.rubin (Alan Rubin)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Status of Havdalah Berakhot

Daniel Alexander asks about how the berakhah Borei Meorei Ha'esh should be 

I saw this discussed in a shiur by Rabbi Yair Kahn and Rabbi Avi Baumol
put out by Yeshivat Har Etzion in their Arvei Pesachim series. They
suggest that it can be considered as either birkat ha-nehenin or birkat
ha-shevach.  If anyone would like to see the full shiur I will be happy
to email it.

Alan Rubin


From: <MDSternM7@...> (Martin D Stern)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 05:59:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Wine touched by non-shabbat-observant Jew

Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...> wrote
>>"If a non-Jew, even one who thinks s/he is Jewish, does so it
>>immediately becomes forbidden; many authorities extend this to a
>>non-shabbat-observant Jew."

>Wow!  Which authorities are these and on what grounds?>>

Prior to the Arukh leNer (Rabbi Yaakov Ettlinger of Altona, mid-19th
century)who introduced the idea that in the post-Emnacipation era,
non-shabbat-observant Jews could be considered as tinokot shenishbu, as
if they had been kidnapped and brought up in a totally non-Jewish
environment and were therefore not deliberate shabbat desecrators with
the intention of rebelling against the Almighty, this was the universal


End of Volume 40 Issue 87