Volume 40 Number 98
                 Produced: Tue Oct 28  6:37:00 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aleinu backwards
         [Jonathan Baker]
An Apology
         [Carl Singer]
Bowing to floor at "Korim" (3)
         [Gil Student, <rubin20@...>, Martin D Stern]
male Moroccan Jews who wore earrings
         [Joel Rich]
Minhag to wear long Peyos
Not Walking Around During "Hoshanos" (8)
         [Martin D Stern, Meir Possenheimer, Elazar M Teitz, David
Ziants, Gershon Dubin, Pudell, Steven J., Ed "Shmuel" Norin,
Larry Israel]
The OTHER head-coverers (2)
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu, Martin D Stern]
Simchat Torah
         [Ari Kahn]
Substandard English
         [Carl Singer]
Techumin CD Rom
         [Moshe Schor]
T'filla for the State of Israel
         [Janice Gelb]
WTC Site and Kohanim
         [Gil Student]


From: Jonathan Baker <jjbaker@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:58:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Aleinu backwards

R' Jonathan Chipman:
> A somewhat similar minhag is one I observed at the home of the late "New
> York" Bostoner Rebbe, after Hanukkah candle lighting, where among other
> things those assembled recited: "Ana bekoah" word by word, seven tiems,
> thus: i.e, "Ana ana ana ana ana ana ana, bekoah bekoah bekoah...." etc.

Not just Bostoners.  I was at the home of a Karlin-Stoliner in Boro Park
once during Chanukah, and he also sang Ana bekoach that way, with a nice
tune he attributed to the Besh"t.

Then there's that line you say three times forwards and three times
backwards in Kiddush Levana.

   - jon baker    <jjbaker@...>     <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker> -


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:04:31 -0500
Subject: An Apology

I wish to apologize to Michael Lipkin for using his posting re: WTC &
Kohanim as my springboard for a note concerning how to go about getting
a P'sak.

Michael has, indeed, consulted his local orthodox rabbi. (CLOR) -- my
concern remains that, despite disclaimers, there are people who use fora
such as this or telephone calls to distant Rabbanim in lieu of the
community Rabbi.

Carl Singer


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:26:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Bowing to floor at "Korim"

Aliza Berger wrote:
>Almost everyone bows to the floor. In my modern Orthodox synagogue in
>New York, hardly anyone did it. Does anyone have more information on
>what the custom of bowing on the floor was in various communities?

Regarding whether women bow to the floors, I remember hearing from R'
Hershel Schachter that Rav Soloveitchik saw different practices in
different places in Europe.  Regarding men bowing, *legend* has it that
the Netziv would not throw someone out of his yeshiva.  Only if he
refused to "bow to the floor" on Yom Kippur did he demonstrate how far
gone he was and the Netziv would expel him.

Gil Student

From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:52:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Bowing to floor at "Korim"

It's not clear whether the poster is referring to men or women. In all
the various Lithuanian Yeshivas I have daven in, all men and no women
bow to Korim. The only place I ever saw just the Chazan bow was in a
Yerushalmi shul in Yerushalaim. As far as I know, only in German shuls
to the women bow by Korim. What is the poster referring to?

From: <MDSternM7@...> (Martin D Stern)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:16:55 EST
Subject: Re: Bowing to floor at "Korim"

    I think the general custom is that all men prostrate themselves. In
our (German) community women do so also but I know this is not
universal. I cannot think of any halachic explanantion why women should
be different from men but it might be related to the rather undignified
posture which offended their feelings of tsniut. Also, it might be
rather uncomfortable during pregnancy.  Finally it might be very
difficult when wearing non-flared skirts or dresses.

    Martin D Stern


From: <Joelirich@...> (Joel Rich)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:31:40 EST
Subject: Re: male Moroccan Jews who wore earrings

<< I once heard that there were male Moroccan Jews who wore earrings
 because they had a mesora that they descended from Jews who hadn't
 sinned in the Chet Haegel. This was their way of showing it.  >>

I believe R' Sperber brings this down in Minhagei Yisrael.  The question to 
ponder is whether men in the host community followed this practice as well.
Joel Rich


From: <Danmim@...> (Dovid)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:39:24 EST
Subject: Re: Minhag to wear long Peyos

where did the minhag to wear long peyos hanging ones, come from?
if someone started to wear such peyos for some time and decided to stop does 
he need atoras nedarim.
thank you, dovid


From: <MDSternM7@...> (Martin D Stern)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 07:53:11 EST
Subject: Re: Not Walking Around During "Hoshanos"

In a message dated 26/10/03, Steven Pudell  wrote:
<<I noticed that certain people were not walking around during the "circuits" 
while everyone else was?  Assuming they had a halachic basis, and not a "bum" 
leg (or other similar excuse) -- does anyone know why they would not walk 
around?  I could always ask them--but I didnt. >>

    The custom is that aveilim do not participate in the hoshanos, or for 
that matter the hakafos on Simchas Torah. Also those not in possession of a set 
of arba minim should not do so since it is the arba minim that are meant to be 
taken around; in any case there are usually terrible traffic jams which people 
without only make worse.

    Martin D Stern

From: Meir Possenheimer <meir@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:52:51 -0000
Subject: Re: Not Walking Around During "Hoshanos"

A person in the twelve months of mourning for a parent (Remo Orach Chayim

From: Elazar M Teitz <remt@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:21:10 -0500
Subject: re: Not Walking Around During "Hoshanos"

        Either because they have no lulav and esrog, or because they are
in the year of mourning for a parent. (RM"A in Orach Chaim 660:2) 

From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:07:05 +0200
Subject: Re: Not Walking Around During "Hoshanos"

It is probably good that you didn't ask someone, in case the person you
ask is an aveil (mourner), who has the custom not to do the "circuits",
and such a question might cause upset.

See the book "Ishei Yisrael" 47:9 who states this custom.  Footnote 34
gives source: Rama note on Shulchan Aruch Orech Chaim 660:2, and Mishneh
Berurah sub-clause 9.

The avel should try and not make himself too conspicuous because
of public mourning. This can be done by either:
a) Holding the Sefer Torah.
b) Giving his lulav to someone who doesn't have his own. (One
only circuits if one has a lulav.)
c) Standing in a corner somewhere where he wouldn't be noticed
so much.

Possibilities a & b are mentioned in Ishei Yisrael. I can't remember
from where I learnt possibility c. Maybe this is just common sense.

Ishei Yisrael also brings the alternate custom that the avel goes around
like everyone else throughout the festival and "lo hifsid, v'schar
mitzva b'yado" (= he doesn't lose and has the reward of a mitzva). This
is from the Chazon Ish, but he brings other sources (including Gesher
HaChayim) that limit this possibility to Yom Tov of Sukkot and to
Hoshanna Rabba.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:49:43 -0500
Subject: Not Walking Around During "Hoshanos"

An avel (mourner) in his year of mourning does not walk around.


From: Pudell, Steven J. <SPudell@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:25:41 -0500
Subject: RE: Not Walking Around During "Hoshanos"

I should have mentioned that they are not aveilim.  

From: <ENGINEERED@...> (Ed "Shmuel" Norin)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:59:50 -0500
Subject: Not Walking Around During "Hoshanos"

I did not walk around during Hoshanos this year since I was in my 12
months of Availus.  For Simchat Torah, I carried the Torah but did not
otherwise dance.  There are many variations in the laws of mourning, so
others may hold by different customs.

Ed "Shmuel" Norin

From: Larry Israel <VSLARRY@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 03 21:02:38 +0200
Subject: Re: Not Walking Around During "Hoshanos"

In our M.O. synagogue mourners do not circle. I looked in the Mishna
B'rura, chapter 660, and as far as my poor Hebrew seems to tell me, the
Rema says so.


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:36:34 EST
Subject: The OTHER head-coverers

Both Martin D Stern and Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi (MJv40n95)
mentioned the similarities between Muslim and Jewish head covering. On
September 2003 I visited my ancestral birth place in Karpata-Rus (today
part of the Ukraine). The villages that used to be Jewish have no Jews
left in them, but the local peasant ladies still have tichels covering
their hair most of the times, and especially during a religious
services. Every one of these Christian Gentile ladies will pass as
frumie in Me'ah She'arim.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu

From: <MDSternM7@...> (Martin D Stern)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:18:41 EST
Subject: Re: The OTHER head-coverers

In a message dated 26/10/03 3:36:34 pm, Gevaryahu writes:
<< The local peasant ladies still have tichels covering their hair most of 
the times, and especially during a religious services. Every one of these 
Christian Gentile ladies will pass as frumie in Me'ah She'arim. >>

That this was the prevalent custom of both Jews and non-Jews in Eastern
Europe, but is now restricted to the peasantry, was the basis of my
original hypothesis that its abandonment was seen initially as merely a
change in fashion of no halachic significance and, when that was later
realised, the 'sophisticated' ladies could not be persuaded to
'cover-up' because of its association with backward peasants. Its
resurgence in the last 30 years or so may be related to our lack of
direct contact with these peasants, and the consequent lack of prejudice
against their way of life. Is there any evidence to back up this

    Martin D Stern


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:02:43 +0200
Subject: Simchat Torah

>  Don Yitzxaq Abarbanel speculated that the celebration of Simxat Torah
> may originate in the Torah commandment,

The Sefer HaManhig predates the Abarbranal with this suggestion by a few
hundred years.

Ari Kahn


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:12:56 -0500
Subject: Substandard English

I live in Passaic, New Jersey -- a diverse, multicultural community.  I
have many neighbors who are from South American and Latin America.
Their English language capability varies, many are working hard to learn
English.  I recall when I first came to the United States in the late
1940's that my parents and their peers went to night school to learn
English. I recall the good natured give and take as they tested or
corrected each other.

Which brings me to this story -- last Thursday while I walking down the
street a black-hatted yeshiva boy (early teens) approached me on a
bicycle -- yes black hat and bicycle -- and asked -- "did you see a
pager on the floor."  (Forget the discourtesy of no greeting) -- I was
nearly FLOORED!  We were both outside -- FLOOR?  Perhaps Street or
Ground or Sidewalk?

I don't now where this young man goes to school, perhaps he's home on
break from some Brooklyn Yeshiva -- but is English that neglected in
some of our schools?

Carl Singer


From: <Moesch2@...> (Moshe Schor)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:24:03 EST
Subject: Techumin CD Rom

Does anyone know whether the Techumin CD Rom (was probably published a
few years ago) is available for purchase anywhere? I live in the
U.S. and have searched internet sites, but haven't found a source where
its advertised. Any help would be appreciated.

Kol Tuv,
Moshe Schor


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:30:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: T'filla for the State of Israel

Alan Friedenberg <elshpen@...>
> Does anyone know of a website that has the full t'filla for the State of
> Israel?

You can see a Hebrew version at:


- Janice


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:18:41 -0500
Subject: Re: WTC Site and Kohanim

Michael Lipkin wrote:
>The PATH station at the World Trade Center site is scheduled to re-open
>in November. Does anyone think there may be an issue of Tumas Meis and
>thus would it be a problem for a Kohain to utilize this station?

My rav spoke about kohanim visiting the site and said that it would be
permissible because it does not fall into the category of beis ha-peras.
(As always, consult your LOR)

Gil Student


End of Volume 40 Issue 98