Volume 41 Number 01
Produced: Wed Oct 29 6:07:53 US/Eastern 2003
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Appropriateness of Not-Made-me-a-Gentile for converts
[Russell J Hendel]
Dancing on Simchat Torah
[Jeanette Friedman]
Leaving shule early
[Carl Singer]
The OTHER head-coverers
[Immanuel Burton]
repeating words during prayer (was Re: Aleinu backwards) (2)
[Sam Saal, Avi Feldblum]
Simchas Torah Reflections
[W. Baker]
Simchat Torah
[Immanuel Burton]
Water flowing Uphill (2)
[Tzadik Vanderhoof, David Charlap]
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From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:23:17 -0500
Subject: RE: Appropriateness of Not-Made-me-a-Gentile for converts
Bernard Raab asks
>>How appropriate is this bracha for a convert? Are they instucted to say
>>something else or just skip it?<<
I think the proper perspective is that the word gentile refers to
gentile CULTURE not gentile GENEALOGY.
But if that is the case the real question is whether Jews should make
the blessing---after all a convert was, by definition, in the gentile
culture, and willfully left and surrendered to God. So indeed the
blessing is very fitting for the convert.
Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.com/
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From: <FriedmanJ@...> (Jeanette Friedman)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:32:20 EST
Subject: Dancing on Simchat Torah
>>Then comes the women who are relegated to siting and watching. Many of
them have sacrificed so their husbands can sit in learn in Kollel or
attend shiurim, or even learn at home. For their sacrifice, they get to
watch the crush of men "dancing" for endless hours. Why is their not a
separate celebration for them? Don't our daughters devote time to study
and living the Torah? Perhaps more modern shuls do have dancing for
them, but what about the more right-wing contingency?<<
In the Shlomo Carlebach shul and others, the women are allowed to dance
with their own sefrei torah. Many women make their own Simchat Torah. As
a female born with a male twin on Simchat Torah itself, I learned about
the unfairness to females very early on. And you are right.
In the old days, the dancing on Simchat Torah was beautiful, it was
heartfelt. Today, I think, except in places like the Shlomo shul, where
under Sammy Intrator, I felt it was erlich, it's a question of some kind
of competition between kehillot and yeshiva guys.
jeanette friedman
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From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:44:35 -0500
Subject: Leaving shule early
The issue of danger walking home a night reminds me of two things:
1 - My Mother once told me that (in pre-war Poland) they used to daven
through the night on Yom Kippur -- partly because it would be dangerous
to go home very late.
2 - (I don't have the source at my fingertips) It is meritorious (as
they say) to walk a stranger (visitor) home after davening, lest he walk
alone. (Presumably due to potential danger.) -- does anyone have more
on this?
Carl Singer
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From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 303 10:05:30 +0000
Subject: RE: The OTHER head-coverers
> Where do you think they got it from? Many Moslem practices are derived
> from ours.
I don't think that's the reason that the average American would
associate women's head covering with Islam and not Judaism. I would
rather be inclined to think that a sheitel is not as obvious a head
covering as a Moslem head scarf, especially as a non-Jewish person would
probably have no reason to suspect that a woman would be wearing a wig,
and so would probably not realise that it is a wig.
With regards to women who cover their hair other than with a sheitel,
there doesn't seem to be a "standard" Jewish covering, which isn't the
case with Moslems, and so again, it probably wouldn't dawn on someone
that Jewish women cover their hair, as a "uniform" isn't apparent.
I hope this isn't going to start off the old debate about whether
realistic sheitles should be worn or not...
Immanuel Burton.
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From: Sam Saal <ssaal@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:55:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: repeating words during prayer (was Re: Aleinu backwards)
Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...> wrote:
>A somewhat similar minhag is one I observed at the home of the late "New
>York" Bostoner Rebbe, after Hanukkah candle lighting, where among other
>things those assembled recited: "Ana bekoah" word by word, seven tiems,
>thus: i.e, "Ana ana ana ana ana ana ana, bekoah bekoah bekoah...." etc.
Occasionally, mail.jewish has discussed the "problem" (in quotes to show
a personal bias) of repeating words during prayer. One example someone
mentioned was repeating "u'shemo" (and His Name) three times in singing
the traditional tune for the last line of Aleinu because of the concern
that someone might not take it as melodic but as naming (as many as)
three gods.
For those in the mail.jewish community who would have a problem with
such melody-based repetitions (and I'm not talking about issues of
wasting the congregatins time, for example with dreying [drawn out]
cantorialisms), how does the Bostoner Rebbe's minhag affect such
concerns?
Sam Saal
<ssaal@...>
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From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:05:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: repeating words during prayer (was Re: Aleinu backwards)
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Sam Saal wrote:
> Occasionally, mail.jewish has discussed the "problem" (in quotes to show
> a personal bias) of repeating words during prayer.
> ...
> For those in the mail.jewish community who would have a problem with such
> melody-based repetitions (and I'm not talking about issues of wasting the
> congregatins time, for example with dreying [drawn out] cantorialisms),
> how does the Bostoner Rebbe's minhag affect such concerns?
As one whose personal bias is having a problem with such repetitions, I'll
put in my thoughts.
I see three cases where I have an issue with repeat words:
1) Within the context of a pasuk from Tanach
2) Within the context of a bracha
3) Where the context of the repetition may have theological implications
(e.g. the case of the Gemara of repeated Modim)
So the Bostoner Rebbe's example above would not fall in any of the cases
above, so I would not have any issue with it in terms of repeating
words.
A good example for me in during opening the Aron. The common tune for
Vayehi Binsoah HaAron has repetitions in the last two sentances. The
next to the last, Ki mitzion has the first part repeated twice. This is
a pasuk, so I do not repeat this. The last has a double type
repetition. The first half is repeated twice, and within that half, the
word Torah is repeated twice. This is not a pasuk, so I have no problem
repeating the sentance fragment twice. However, I find Torah/Torah to
close to Modim/Modim that the Gemara forbids, so I stretch out the word
to cover other people repeating it.
Avi Feldblum
<avi@...>
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From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:31:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Simchas Torah Reflections
> From: <Smwise3@...>
> I know Simchas Torah is supposed to be a joyous celebration, but each
> year, no matter where I go--sometimes far away from my Brooklyn
> community--I find myself bothered by the same two issues: ultralong
> hakafos and what is in it for women.
<snip>
> Then comes the women who are relegated to siting and watching. Many of
> them have sacrificed so their husbands can sit in learn in Kollel or
> attend shiurim, or even learn at home. For their sacrifice, they get to
> watch the crush of men "dancing" for endless hours. Why is their not a
> separate celebration for them? Don't our daughters devote time to study
> and living the Torah? Perhaps more modern shuls do have dancing for
> them, but what about the more right-wing contingency?
>
> I would like to hear comments from others. Maybe I am missing
> something, but Simchas Torah, even when I enter it with my best
> attitude, always leaves me a little disappointed and bewildered.
In our shul, for the last 31 years we have had women's tefillah services
on Simhat Torah, including hakafot with a Sefer Torah. This is on
Simhat Torah morning. The night before, we have hakafot with a Sefer
Torah, but not a full service, in a separate room in the annex of the
shul. Women who are interested can attend and those who are not
interested or object need not go.
There are a number of Modern Orthodox shuls that hae similar services,
both here, in England, Canada, and in Israel and, this year for the
first time, Sydney Australia. Not all Reebaim go along with this, but
many now do. It certainly beats standing around and gossiping with the
other women while the men dance round and round.
Wendy Baker
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From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:29:05 +0000
Subject: RE: Simchat Torah
In MJv40n96, Josh Backon wrote:
> The custom of completing the reading of the Torah on Simchat Torah is
> mentioned in a braita in Megilla 31a "l'machar korin V'Zoht haBracha".
The Talmud in Megilla 31a does indeed say that on Simchas Torah the
reading is "Ve'zos Ha'bracha". However, I would like to suggest that
this is NOT because the reading of the Torah is specifically completed
on Simchas Torah, but for another reason.
The passage of Talmud cited continues and says that the Haftorah on
Simchas Torah is "Va'yamod Shlomoh" (1 Kings 8:55), which is not the
Haftorah that we read (Joshua 1). The Haftorah for Shemini Atzeres is
given as "Va'yehi Kechalos Shlomoh" (1 Kings 8:54), which starts one
verse earlier than the one given for Simchas Torah.
The Torah reading on Yom Tov usually has a connection to the theme of
the day. For example, on Shovous we read from Yisro about the Giving Of
The Torah. The Haftorah given in the Talmud for Simchas Torah talks
about Solomon blessing the people, and the only parallel to that in
Torah is in Ve'zos Ha'brochoh, when Moshe blessed the people. (Usually
the Haftorah is dictated by the Torah reading, but here it's the other
way round!) If the lehening was fixed as Ve'zos Ha'brochoh, then maybe
the celebration of concluding the cycle of reading the Torah was then
fixed for Shemini Atzeres/Simchas Torah - in other words, the cause and
effect are the other way round, i.e. the fact that we happened to read
the last sidra of the Torah (because of relevance to the day) lead to
celebrating the conclusion of the cycle.
If the Talmud gives a different Haftorah for Simchas Torah, where and
when did the custom to read Joshua 1 start? Perhaps the reason it is
read is to show continuity, i.e. even though Moshe's life had come to an
end, we still carry on as the Jewish People.
Immanuel Burton
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From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
Subject: Water flowing Uphill
>Of course, you will never see it flowing uphill. (Although there may be
>some places where the countryside produces the illusion of of uphill
>flow, it's still just an illusion.)
I question that absolute statement. It seems, just with my limited
experience with plumbing, that if the water is coming from a relatively
high point, it could go down to a quite low point and have so much
momentum left over from its recent descent that it could flow uphill.
If you look at the pipes in your house, you'll see there are often bends
in them that require the water to flow straight up.
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From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Subject: Re: Water flowing Uphill
This is basic physics, and IMO is not relevant to mail-jewish, but since
you sent your question to the list, I'll send my answer there as well.
Avi: Please use your best judgement regarding whether to post this or not.
[As a physicist, I have a soft spot for postings on basic physics. Mod.]
You're describing the siphon effect. It only works if the water is in a
pipe. If the water is exposed, as in a river, it will never ever flow
uphill. Momentum has nothing to do with it. Water always flows to a
lower elevation. If there is no lower elevation to flow to, it will
collect and form a pool. When the level of water in the pool rises
enough to spill over an edge, the water will resume flowing downhill.
In pipes, it's a little different - because the water can't pool beyond
the point of completely filling the pipe. This is where the siphon
effect comes from. When all air has been evacuated from the pipe, the
water will flow in all directions, but only as long as the outlet is
lower than the inlet. If you move the outlet (e.g. the end of the hose
the water is flowing from) higher than the inlet, the water will flow in
the other direction.
This is also the principle behind a "water level" that many builders use
(and you can buy in a hardware store.) If you have a long flexible tube
that is mostly full of water (and no air anywhere in it, except at the
ends), then the level of the water at one end will always be at the same
elevation as the water level at the other end. It doesn't matter how
much the tube bends and twists in between. This is often used for
measuing a level horizontal line over long distances.
A little bit of thought and you can realize that the water level and the
siphon are both employing the same principle. As soon as one end of a
water level's hose drops below the water level at the other end of the
hose, the water starts flowing out that end.
This is also why sewers back-up when there's a flood. The sewers, like
rivers, must flow downhill. If there's so much water in the system that
the level rises above the inlets (your drains), then the water will flow
in the opposite direction.
The only way to make water move to a higher elevation, with or without a
pipe, is to use a pump.
-- David
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End of Volume 41 Issue 1
