Volume 41 Number 60
                 Produced: Sun Dec 28  8:19:41 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Books in NYC
Demanding Respect
         [Carl Singer]
Double names
         [Michael Poppers]
Good Manners
Minyan and Nusach
nusach of shiach tzibbur
         [Eli Turkel]
Prayer Book for Jewish Personnel in the Armed Forces of the US
         [Carl Singer]
Psychotropic Medications
         [Aliza Berger]
Shabbat Elevators
Table Manners
         [Shalom Carmy]
Test of Faith
         [Kenneth G Miller]


From: <pitab@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:05:10 -0500
Subject: Books in NYC

>Also, does anyone know sites where I can buy books on Jewish History on
>the net or stores in New york City that are well stocked in this area.
>I'm referring to classics like Sefer hayuchsim and books by authors like
>grossman, Ta-Shma etc...

Send an e-mail to Ideal Books which is in Yonkers, NY.  They either have
in stock or can get for you almost any book published by Magnes Press,
Mossad Bialik, etc.  They also have an extensive used book inventory.

Their e-mail is <idealbooks@...>


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:25:14 -0500
Subject: Demanding Respect

re: Individual respect

I live in a community where many of the balabatim have smicha -- even
though they may have secular jobs.  I find it interesting that some when
being asked their name for an aliyah say "plony ben plony" and others
say "Rav plony ben plony" -- different gabbaim who may or may not know
the individual may or may not say "Rav plony ben plony" in the first

I was at a wedding not too long ago and seated (perhaps mis-seated) at a
table next to a gentlemen who introduced himself as "Joe Smith" as did I
-- we exchanged pleasant conversation (where are you from, etc.) --
another guest who knew both of us arrived at the table and greeted us as
"Dr. Singer" and "Rabbi Smith" -- it turns out that Rabbi Smith was a
Rosh Yeshiva.  Had I known I imagine I would have spoken more "third

re: Positional respect

There's koved ha'Torah -- position (such as Rosh Yeshiva) tacitly
warrants respect.  HaMavdil, for the last 10 years of my Army career I
was a full Colonel.  Walking down "the company street" while in uniform
obligated people to show me respect (salutes, standing at attention when
I entered a room, addressing me as "Sir", etc.) -- and conversely, I was
obligated to demand that respect for the uniform / rank.  I couldn't
simply say or imply that it was OK not to salute, etc.

Is it proper for someone who is learned to eschew respect?  Any sources?

Carl Singer


From: <MPoppers@...> (Michael Poppers)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:07:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Double names

In M-J V41#43, AAHofmann wrote:
> Certainly there is a possibility of misunderstanding from some of the
> German Jewish families, where the son was often named after the father
> without the traditional "ben" (son of) in between the names - Rabbi Shimson
> Rafael Hirsch was really Shimshon _son_of_ Rafael Hirsch, yet the name is
> often given to (yekkish) children as a double-barrelled one.

One quibble: RSRH was not named that way (e.g. by his parents) -- he
himself added his father's name to his own (according to R'Klugmann, the
SRH biographer, during his father's lifetime).  His shaim kodesh, as Mr.
Hofmann noted, was still Shamshon, not Shamshon R'foel.

All the best from

Michael Poppers via RIM pager


From: Anonymous
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:35:42
Subject: Re: Good Manners

> Here's the scenario -- it's last zman for mincha (however you calculate
> that) and you're asked to leave your minyan (of at least 11 men) which
> is about to start in order to be the 10th at a shiva minyan -- which
> will make you (and them) all (let's say) 10 minutes late.  It is certain
> that there are only nine at the shiva minyan, and because others are
> unaware you would be the (only) tenth, etc.  What is the halachic
> choice?  What is the social choice?

I had a similar question this week (Chanuka). I was coming home from
work early, to make it to the _earliest_ minyan for maariv, since my
custom is to light immediately after that.  On the way, I passed a blind
man going the other direction, in what seemed a very halting and unsure
way (I have seen plenty of blind people going much faster).  Question:
Should I ask if he needs help (and mess up my Chanuka schedule), or just
assume he will manage without me?

In fact, I now know he would have been fine (but would have taken a bit
longer on his own), but that night I davened and lit late.  I hope the
little gmilas chassodim makes up for the late lighting.

The real question seems to be whether there is some halachic
_preference_ for bein-adam-lachaveiro over bein-adam-lamakom.  Faced
with the either/or (but not both), does bein-adam-lachaveiro really
'trump' the other mitzva?

A Freilichen Chanuka!


From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:32:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Kollel

> I also doubt that Rav Kotler accepted students who had no interest in
> becoming Rabonim or Rebbies into his Kollel. I imagine that he thought of
> Kollel as something for the elite.

At a fundraising meeting in Lakewood Yeshivas early years, Rav Ahron
banged on a table and said " Gentlemen, I don't wish to take money under
false pretenses. It is very likely that the Yeshiva will produce
Rabbonim and teachers. But that is not the goal of the yeshiva. The goal
of the yeshiva is a place where Torah is learn Lishmah." (Rabbonim and
teachers were a by product not the point of the yeshiva).


From: <Smwise3@...>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:38:32 EST
Subject: Re: Minyan and Nusach

<< << From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
  Mr Wise does not make it clear if this minyan was an ad hoc gathering
or a regular fixture. If the former there can be no objection to any
sheliach tsibbur using whatever nusach he wishes. However, if it were
the latter and a certain nusach had always been used, then nobody is
allowed to change it under any circumstances as was ruled by the Maharil
(Hilchot Yom Hakippurim 21, Machon Yerushalayim edition p. 339) who is
one of the main authorities on which Minhag Ashkenaz is 
based...............>> >>

The minyan was regularly scheduled and located in the same place for
years.  It was even listed as such in Agudah's Minyan Map.



From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:52:10 +0200
Subject: nusach of shiach tzibbur

> One comment however - he says that if the minyan was an ad-hoc
gathering, any shliach tzibbur can use any nusach. I wonder if that is
correct. If a majority of the minyan, for example, daven nusach
Ashkenaz, can a single [person with a different Nusach] then come in and
daven his way against their will ? A shliach tzibbur is just that - a
messenger of the tzibbur - not a free agent who can do whatever he
wishes. If a shliach doesn't do what those who send him wish, his right
to such a title and position comes into question, IMHO.>

If almost everyone in the ad-hoc minyan have the same Nusach then every
shilach tzibbur must follow that Nusach. However, in many Minchah
minyanim there are people with various backgrounds.

For example in Israel at work it is common to find people with Ashnenaz,
Sefard (Chassidic), Sefardi (edot Mizrach) and Temani backgrounds. It is
not feasible to have separate minyanim for each group. The accepted
practice in numerous places that I have been is that the sheliach
tzibbur chooses which nusach to follow.

Prof. Eli Turkel,  <turkel@...> on 25/12/2003
Department of Mathematics, Tel Aviv University


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:40:29 -0500
Subject: Prayer Book for Jewish Personnel in the Armed Forces of the US

I'm holding in my hand as I type (no mean feat) the 1958 version of the
"Prayer Book for Jewish Personnel in the Armed Forces of the United
States" (c) 1958, by "The Commission on Jewish Chaplaincy of the
National Jewish Welfare Board" Library of Congress Card Number 58-11572.
I don't have the WW-II handy, I recall seeing it somewhere.

I don't recall when I received this (1985), but I entered the Army in
1970.  I also have a complete weekday Birnbaum Siddur -- half size /
paperback with OD (Olive Drab) Green cover -- I don't recall when or how
I got it.  The Birnbaum is complete -- same as you'd buy at your local
Judaica store.

The Prayer book is highly abridged (Hebrew / English).  Here's a quick

Many prayers which would normally appear in multiple places in a siddur
appear only once with references.  The most vivid example is Mincha:

The "Tefilat Mincha LChol" (written in Hebrew) consists of a SINGLE PAGE
with the following list.

	Psalm 145  pp 72-74
 	Half Kaddish   p 70
	Amidah pp 48-70
	Reader's Kaddish  p 80
	Alenu   p 82 
        Mourner's Kaddish p 86

There is a similar facing page in English "Afternoon Service for Weekdays"

Here's a partial comparison of the weekday Schacharis -- although I
prefer Tikon Mayer the following compares the ArtScroll with the "Army"
Here's a list of ArtScroll Content (+ & -) indicate whether it's in the
1958 armed forces prayer book:

Modeh Ahni +
Rayshis Chacmah -
Tzitis +
Tallis +
Tefillin +
Post Tefillin readings -
Ma Tovu  -
Adon Olum +
Yigdal +       
Yadayim -
Rofeh Kol Basar -
Torah Blessing -
Bruchas -
Akeidah -
Shma -
Karbonis -
Incense -
Reb Yeshmuel -
Mizmor Shir (intro to Pseukei d'zimrah)-

<< After Yigdal, the Armed Forces "jumps" to Numbers 6.22, Alokay
Nishmas then Baruch Sh'amar >>

Baruch Sh'amar

This tiny siddur includes lulav, chanukah, vidu, etc and has a section
in the back with the UPB (Union Prayer Book) versions of each of the
services (morning, evening, morning Shabbos, morning Yom Tov, etc.)  I
don't know why the dual sets.

It is 470 pages and measures 3 inchs by 5 inches & 1/2 inch thick.

Carl Singer


From: Aliza Berger <alizadov@...>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 15:29:44 +0200
Subject: Psychotropic Medications

Rabbi Nathaniel Helfgot, an Orthodox Jewish educator, wrote an article
describing his personal experiences with antidepressants, in the Fall
2001 issue of Jewish Action.

Of course one has to be careful in choosing whom to marry, but this must
be balanced by realizing that there is a huge difference between an
(even former) child abuser and someone who functions normally (job,
etc.) but needs to take a psychotropic drug. Nobody is perfect.

We need more open discussion of this issue in all segments of the
Orthodox Jewish community. Perhaps some of the Orthodox mental health
organizations, listed in Rabbi Helfgot's article (Yitti Leibel Help
Line, Echo Medical Referral Service, Nefesh-International), could take
the lead in this area.


Aliza Berger, PhD
English Editing: www.editing-proofreading.com
Statistics Consulting: www.statistics-help.com


From: <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:21:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Shabbat Elevators

these 2 are pretty good starting points:

this is ok, imho:

Use them as guidlines but a posek boki will have to asssist you in 
doing this. 



From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:59:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Table Manners

>The man walked into our house, pulled a book off the shelf and proceeded
>to read it all through the seuda, while my husband made kiddush (he
>asked to make his own - which is fine), and between the courses. His
>wife seemed to ask him to put the book down a few times (though they
>spoke in their native language, which we do not understand), but he
>ignored her.

1. I wish I could get away with that!

2. Is it possible that there is some playing out of an internal family
drama between him and his wife?


From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 21:33:13 -0500
Subject: re: Test of Faith

I wrote: <<< In very sharp contrast, when HaShem told Avraham to
sacrifice his son, that was a command, and to question it would have
been insubordination. >>>

Michael Toben responded <<< The sin of insubordination as against taking
a life - the life of one's own son. I don't think you have a case. In a
case of Pekuach Nefesh, insubordination is not one of those
circumstances that should stop us acting to save a life. >>>

I beg to differ. There are three mitzvos which override even Pikuach
Nefesh (protecting life) and one of them is Avodah Zara - service to a
god other than HaShem.

In this particular instance, Avraham was given a direct command from
HaShem to do a particular action. If he chose to decline that particular
option, and chose one which was more in keeping with his personal sense
of morality, wouldn't that count as making his own morality into a god?

Akiva Miller


End of Volume 41 Issue 60