Volume 41 Number 69
                 Produced: Sun Jan  4 20:53:52 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chanuka Miracle 8 Days or 7?
         [Joshua Meisner]
Friends of Sharei Tzedek
         [Mordechai Horowitz]
Kollel (2)
         [Michael Kahn, Carl Singer]
Left at the Church?
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Minyan and Davening
Rav Soloveitick's shiur in 1957 for Sanhedren
Refering to Someone in Third Person (2)
         [Jack Gross, Mark Steiner]
Rosh Yeshiva
         [Michael Kahn]
Sock it to me (2)
         [David Waysman, Avi Feldblum]


From: Joshua Meisner <jam390@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:24:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Chanuka Miracle 8 Days or 7?

> It appears that the Hebrew words for "oil" and for "eight", "shemen" and
> "shemoneh", share the common root Sh-M-N.  Is this pure coincidence?
> Does it have anything to do with the miracle of the oil, and Chanukah
> being 8 days long?

	Edward Horowitz suggests in his /How the Hebrew Language Grew/
that certain letters in the Hebrew alphabet - ayin, chet, shin, zayin,
and tzadi - each represent what used to be two or three distinct sounds
in the Hebrew language.  This idea explains how certain seemingly
identical three-letter roots result in words with meanings that are

	The sounds contained in those first two letters, for each a
"harsh" sound and a "mild" sound, have maintained their independent
identities in the Arabic alphabet (My own Arabic comprehension is
non-existent, so this is secondhand information).

	The additional sounds that are contained in the latter three
letters can be seen from the letter swaps that occur in Hebrew-Aramaic
conversions.  Tzadi represents a tet-like sound (natzar, watch, becomes
natar), an ayin-like sound (eretz, land, becomes ar'a), and the
traditional tzadi sound.  Zayin sometimes represents a hard /th/ sound,
which is most similar to a contemporary dalet (Zahav, gold, becomes
dahava).  Shin sometimes represents a soft /th/ sound, which is most
similar to a contemporary tav.  To use the example under consideration,
Shemen simply becomes Shamna, while Sh'moneh becomes Tamnei.

	Based on this, it would appear that the similar roots of the two
words in written Hebrew is not based on any connection between the two
words, as their first letters represent different sounds.

- Josh


From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 09:49:16 -0500
Subject: Friends of Sharei Tzedek

Does anyone know of a website or other contact information for the
American fundraising branch of sharei tzedek hospital?


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:46:03 -0500
Subject: RE: Kollel

>I believe that the critics are not interested in just getting
>kollel people to work.  I think critics expect that after their last year
>in kollel they would, to repay the commmunity at large for kindness while
>in kollel, go out and contribute educatioanlly to those who they gained
>so much from (financially or otherwise).

The very act of learning Torah does much more than "repay" the people
who support kollel. The Nfesh Hachaim tells us that it is through Tora
study that the world's kiyum (existence) is maintained. Also, Reb
Yisrael Salanter famously said that when a Jew in Vilna studies Tora he
prevents a Jew in paris from shmading (leaving the faith) and when a Jew
in Vilna G-d forbid wastes his Tora study time he causes a Jew in Paris
to become an apostate. Whether or not you agree with this is one thing
but a major component of the philosophical underpinning of the kollel
system is that in depth Torah study helps all of the Jewish people

If you give me money for me to render you a service I do not owe you
anything after I render you the service. When you give me money to
render you the service of my learning Torah I similarly do not owe you
anything. (I am stating it so strongly to bring out a point. Of course I
agree that one who supports Tora deserves Hakaras Hatov. But I think the
supporter of Tora also owes the learner of Tora Hakaras Hatov.)

>Instead, those who have been the beneficiaries of charity, usually stay
>in Lakewood (bnei brak, etc.)  without ever repaying their debt.

I know that many kollel people in Lakewood are involved in Kiruv all
over New Jersey. I for one used to learn with a non frum person weekly
in a kiruv center in Manalapan, N.J. once a week for no
compensation. And I wasn't the only one! Don't forget all the kollel
people involved in Partners in Torah too.

Many kollel people, do go into chinuch. (In the yeshiva community
virtually all mechanchim are kollel product.) Any while many kollel
people don't go on to teach that is a good thing because not everyone is
cut out for teaching.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the kollel system is perfect. Many
people are forced into the system due to pear pressure and aren't really
learning because they don't want to be there in the first place and this
must be addressed. There are many people who go to shulle on Shabbos but
also don't really want to be there so they talk through davening and go
to kiddush clubs. But we don't close the shulles because of
that. Simmilarly, we shouldn't argue for the undoing of the kollel
system because of the batlanim (people who waste time). Instead we
should insist that the batlanim "ship up or shape out." But there are
also many people in kollel who are seriously learning at a high level
and with hasmada. I live in this community and know of what I speak. I
feel there are people who are learning who really belong working and
there are people working who really belong learning. (No one ever
talks about the second group.) 

Societal antagonism toward the "scholarly class" is not a new
phenomenon. Conservatives and Republicans in the U.S. love to bash the
people in "the ivory tower" of academia and portray them as "out of
touch with the real world." That's why George Bush speaks proudly of his
being a C student. And Rabbi Akiva (lehavdil) said that before he became
a talmid chacham he hated talmiday chachamim. The gemara says that the
apikorsim used to say "What do the Talmiday Chachamim do for
us. Everything they do is for themselves." 

I hope I haven't written to strongly. I do not mean to offend anyone.  I
write this as a former "yeshiva man" presently working and attending

From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:26:43 -0500
Subject: Kollel

One size doesn't fit all -- and in describing what a kollel does to or
for a community one cannot generalize.

In some instances the kollel is, in part, a most welcome and valuable
outreach organization that reaches out to the community providing a
resources that range from informal role models to study partners, etc.,
to teachers at the local schools.

In some instances the kollel is an isolated entity whose members don't
acknowledge your presence except when it comes to requesting funds.

Even if you don't directly fund a kollel you may be subsidizing one
because, for example, the schools that you send your children to offer
"scholarships" to kollel families.  Simple math.  If there are 100
children in your community school and the tuition is $10,000 per child,
the annual tuition revenue should be one million dollars.  If, instead,
that revenue is, say, $600,000.  Then you are really paying $6,000
tuition and $4,000 scholarship subsidy.  And you don't even get the tax
deduction.  Conventional wisdon is that if tuition were reset to $6,000
with a $4,000 donation request that noone would pay the $4,000.

Carl Singer


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:23:07 +0200
Subject: Re: Left at the Church?

> I have heard several times a halakha (minhag?) that one should not give
> directions using a church as a landmark.  I have never seen a source for
> it or an explanation.  Any help?

The Gemara in Sanhedrin 63B says:
" 'Vesheim elohim acheirim lo tazkiru' [Shemot 23:13] -  (do not
*mention* the name of other gods)
A person should not tell his friend 'wait for me at avoda-zara
such-and-such' ".

I believe this is the source of the prohibition you mentioned, although
the case is slightly different.

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


From: <chips@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 21:12:42 -0800
Subject: Minyan and Davening

	person davens eveything  slower than the minyan, to the extent 
that the person is not up to Modym when the shiliach tzibur starts 

	should the person start early enough so that he would say 
Kedusha but prior to that being in Shema Brachos and thus being 
unable to say Omein to Yishtabach and respond to Barchu ?



From: <Friendlyjew@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:34:07 EST
Subject: Rav Soloveitick's shiur in 1957 for Sanhedren

We are looking for notes on the Rav's shiur given around 1957 in
Sanhedren... if you know of anyone in that class or anyone who has the
notes , please email <friendlyjew@...> or call in israel 972 2 999
6013 . Rav Reichman needs the notes to write up the shiurim for his
series of Reshimot seferim... ( he already has Rav Schechter's notes but
needs another set ) He has 2 out of 3 notebooks or Rav Bronspiegal 's
notes. If you have the 3rd notebook of Rav Bronspeigal , please send an
email to above address.

thank you


From: Jack Gross <ibijbgross@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:26:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Refering to Someone in Third Person

<<From: Matan Shole <thinkoncemore@...>
In regards to Carl Singer's point that had he known he was speaking to a
Rosh Yeshiva he would have spoken in third person.  I once heard some
people say that using the third person is a sign of respect.  However,
later a friend explained that this is a mistaken carryover from
German(?) . . . >>

Or classical Hebrew, as in the opening sentences of Vayyiggash: 
    "_Adoni_ shaal et avadav ...
    Vanomer el _adoni_",
yet we find Yehuda soon reverts to second-person:
    "Vatomer el avadecha .."

From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:44:02 +0200
Subject: RE: Refering to Someone in Third Person

The use of the third person for a rosh yeshiva dates back (at least) to
the Babylonian Talmud, for example (Berakhot 27a, my free translation):

Rabbi Eliezer taught: One who...greets his rebbe [Rashi: by
name]...causes the Divine Presence to depart from Israel....[but]
R. Yirmiah bar Abba was an exception to this rule, as he was a colleague
of his rosh yeshiva [talmid haver], which is why he once said to his
rebbe [the Amora, Rav] on Friday afternoon: "Have you ceased [Aramaic:
bdlt, 2nd person] from doing work?"  and didn't say "Has the rebbe [mar]
ceased [Aramaic: bdyl, 3rd person] from doing work?"

In Yiddish, of course, there are two SECOND persons, as in other
languages (French, German), but even in Yiddish, I think it would be
more respectful to address a rebbe in the THIRD person, as above.

Mark Steiner


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:32:23 -0500
Subject: RE: Rosh Yeshiva

>Being a Rosh Yeshiva, however, does has a duality of both title and
>"occupation" (if I can use that term.)

Sure you can use that term. Reb Yaakov, as recounted in the Artscroll
biography of his life, once told a student who was a magid shiur (Torah
lecturer) that he should have in mind his need for help in preparing his
lectures in the bracha in Shmona Esray of Baruch Alainu, the bracha that
concentrates on parnassa (making a living) because for him, saying
shiurim (lectures) was his parnasa (livelihood.)


From: David Waysman <waysmand@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 23:29:34 +1100
Subject: Sock it to me

Our kehilla is currently between LOR's.  One evening recently I was
invited to be the Shaliach Tsibbur, only to have the invitation
withdrawn when a shule official noticed that I was wearing sandals, but
no socks.

My understanding is that in many Israeli shules, the wearing of socks is
not mandatory, though in others & possibly most diaspora minyanim they
are compulsory. It may tie in with the question of what can be defined
as appropriate garb for tephilla. I believe that sources indicate that
one is to dress as one would before a monarch. If this is the case, how
might informal dress ever be considered to be appropriate, even in the
heat of a Melbourne or Jerusalem summer ?

Could anyone shed some light on this issue?

Best Wishes,
David Waysman
Phone : 03 9525 9161

From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:34:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Sock it to me

As a similar issue came up in a shul where David Riceman and I were both
davening, David showed me at the time that it would appear to be a serious
halachic issue with a shul that would do what David W. just described
above. The halacha is written from the point of the person being asked to
daven. If that person says that he cannot lead the services until he puts
on a pair of socks, then he is disqualified from leading the services. It
is not unreasonable to conclude that if the shul requires one to don a
pair of socks prior to leading the congregation, it may be forbidden to
daven with that shul.

Avi Feldblum


End of Volume 41 Issue 69