Volume 41 Number 74
                 Produced: Tue Jan 13  6:07:32 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Being Denied Entry To A Shul.
         [Immanuel Burton]
Date of Yom HaShoah
         [Warren Burstein]
Hebrew Grammar Article
         [Eugene Bazarov]
Left at the Church?
         [Daryl Vernon]
Music in Jerusalem
         [Aryeh Gibber]
Polite form of speech
         [Leo Koppel]
Seasons' greetings
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
The Slow Davener
Speaking in the third Person as a sign of respect
         [Joseph Kaplan]
Teshuvot on Shackling/Hoisting before and during Slaughter
         [Joel Wiesen]
         [Nathan Lamm]
Zen and Judaism (2)
         [Ezriel Krumbein, Matan Shole]


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:21:43 +0000
Subject: Being Denied Entry To A Shul.

On a recent holiday/vacation overseas, a friend of mine and I tried to
gain entry to one of the local Shuls for mincha/maariv on a weekday
after a day touring round the city in question.  The security guard
seemed to be saying that we weren't allowed in with cameras, and that if
we wanted to come in to daven we would have to abandon all our
photographic equipment in the street.

We returned the next day and paid the entry fee for a guided tour of the
Shul and to see the Shul's Jewish Museum.  My friend asked the tour
guide about our previous day's experience, and the guide told us that as
there are no tour guides in the Shul during services to prevent people
from taking photographs, no-one is allowed to bring in a camera, hence
our being barred from coming in to daven.

I would therefore like to pose the following questions:

Does one have a right to demand entry to a Shul in order to daven with a

Do the Shul authorities have an obligation (moral or otherwise) to admit
those who want to enter to daven with a minyan?

Is there a Halachic basis on which our being denied entry to daven with
a minyan can be defended?

Is the way we were treated compatible with Hachanasas Orchim [receiving
of guests]?

Bearing in mind that it is not unfeasible for tourists to have cameras
with them, should a Shul which seems to attract tourists have some sort
of depository where they can leave their cameras during services?

Is it right to accuse visitors of posing as people who want to daven in
order to be able to take photographs and hence not have to buy postcards
of the Shul?  Maybe I'm being naive, but I thought that Shuls were meant
to be places of worship as opposed to souvenir shops.

On the up-side, however, we went to a different Shul on Shabbos, and
were invited back by someone for a meal.

Immanuel Burton.


From: Warren Burstein <warren@...>
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 11:41:07 +0200
Subject: Date of Yom HaShoah

In Vol 41 # 68, I asked about the date of Yom Hashoah when Nisan 27
falls on Sunday.  Since then, I checked with someone who works at Yad
Vashem, and it is going to be postponed this year, presumably to avoid
Chillul Shabbat from people getting ready for ceremonies on Motzaei

Someone else told me that the authorities are discussing postponing Yom
Hazikaron (and Yom Haatzmaut) this year for the same reason.


From: Eugene Bazarov <evbazarov@...>
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:55:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hebrew Grammar Article

Perhaps someone can help. I am looking for an English article on the Das
Torah view of historical aspects of Hebrew Dikduk. That article should
deal with questions like: Does Grammar change? Who were the Massorites?
Is every punctuation mark/accents from Moshe at Har Sinai? Are there
variations of dikduk within Chumash/Tanach? etc etc. I am interested in
the Torahdiker point of view. I would prefer there to be as many
original sources as possible.

Any Ideas?

E.V. Bazarov 


From: Daryl Vernon <ck872@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:50:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Left at the Church?

During a trip in Cape Breton last year, I dared near dusk to drive our
family on a beautiful but poorly marked back road, adequate indication
of road closure & detour ahead missing.  There were present a couple of
men idly on road work duty, just as we came upon the actual closure.
Map in hand I solicited their directions. They were, it seemed,
apparently at least map- illiterate; but after some uncertain
consultation did assure me that such & such was the detour we should
follow.  I sensed their counsel to somehow be wrong, after consideration
with the patient many passengers, & strode back to try again.  This time
one of the pair in local accent exclaimed that in fact it was in another
direction that we should head for Cheticamp, over this bridge here, left
there, along there, etc., until you come out at a crossroads by the
church, & at that if I was still lost, "I could always go into the
church to pray"...Of course it all seemed far funnier to us at the time,
travellers with darkening sky about; but lost on the two would have been
the greater contrast inherent in our situation of being strictly averse
to their religious advice.

Can I elicit comment on, short of grave situations, when one might not
deem it inappropriate to venture into a church?  In our day, in which
type of church, for which purposes?

Has anyone encountered a synagogue such as in one small Ontario town,
where many decades ago a church building was converted, so to speak,
this having been fairly easy for correct directional orientation & lack
of grosser inappropriate prior embellishment?


From: Aryeh Gibber <agibber@...>
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 23:22:57 -0500
Subject: Music in Jerusalem

I recently viewed a newly-released video entitled Kumzitz. It's a
beautiful Kumzitz featuring Mordechai Ben David and an accompanying
choir of approximately 25 young men. The Kumzitz/concert was held on a
rooftop in the Old City with the accompaniment of a full orchestra,
which had me wondering: What are the guidelines of the ban on live music
in Jerusalem, and how does so public a musical event fit within it?

Aryeh Gibber


From: Leo Koppel <wallyut@...>
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:49:08 -0700
Subject: Polite form of speech

The use of the 3rd person singular as an alternative 2nd person form
exists in antiquated German.  Until the beginning of the 19th century,
members of the German nobility generally addressed their servants in the
3rd person singular.  This form of address was invariably used by a
social superior to address a social inferior except in the case of the
king.  In such a case person speaking to the king would probably use the
3rd person to refer to himself as well.  Euro is an older 2nd person
plural possessive adjective that I have usually seen in such dialogues.
I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that it is indeclinable.

Euro königliche Hoheit hat euro Diener eine große Ehre dadurch getan,
mit ihm zu treffen.

Your royal highness has done your servant (me) a great honor by meeting
with him (me).


From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 00:42:52 EST
Subject: Re: Seasons' greetings

>I wanted to  bring up a somewhat related concept.  What do you all think
>about the  permissibility of saying "Merry Christmas" or returning such  a

Seasons' greetings works. In fact, there are all kinds of jokes
circulating about this. Around here we use "Happy Festivus," not sure
what it means precisely, but it sounds like Happy Partytime, and
everyone who hears it grins and says, "kewl."


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 07:58:48 +0200
Subject: Re: Sha-atah

> What I find more interesting -- speaking of Modim -- is that in some
> non-Ashkenazi prayerbooks the Modim D'Rabbanan ends with the
> postbiblical word "'anu" (which in Ashkenazi prayerbooks has been
> replaced with the Biblical form "'anaxnu"), but in all versions of the
> prayerbook, Modim begins with the Biblical form "'anaxnu".  I am puzzled
> at the inconsistency in some non-Ashkenazi prayerbooks between 'anaxnu at
> the beginning of the paragraph and 'anu at the end.  I understand that
> Modim D'Rabbanan is a compilation of phrases from many sources, but it is
> an ancient compilation, and I would have expected the original editors to
> have imposed some consistency on its language.

Its 'literary source' is all from Sota 40A, although the phrases are
quotes from several different people.  Interestingly, *all* of them used
"anu", so what excuse is there to change this to 'anachnu' (or 'anaxnu')?

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


From: Anonymous
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 04:44:07 -0500
Subject: The Slow Davener

> From: <chips@...>
> Situation:
>	person davens eveything  slower than the minyan, to the extent 
>that the person is not up to Modym when the shiliach tzibur starts 
>	should the person start early enough so that he would say 
>Kedusha but prior to that being in Shema Brachos and thus being 
>unable to say Omein to Yishtabach and respond to Barchu ?

I think there are two aspects to this question. 

1 - What that person needs to do as phrased in the above question.

2 - What that person needs to do to avoid disrupting others who are
davening with the tzibur.

Addressing only the second point -- as we have such a person in our

If this person davens loudly enough for others to hear and is always "on
a different page" what is the appropriate response to this disruptive

If this person who was present at for all of davening (including
"borchu") at the conclusion of davening loudly calls out "borchu ...."
is one required to respond and is it appropriate for him to call out as
he does?

I contrast this with someone else in shule who Davens more slowly, but
keeps it to himself.  Unless you glanced over to see what page he was
on, you would not realize that the was davening at a different pace.


From: Joseph Kaplan <penkap@...>
Subject: Speaking in the third Person as a sign of respect

When I was in yeshiva many years ago, I had a rebbe who had a very sharp
tongue and sense of humor.  There was a student in the class who was
sweet, modest and shy.  He was one of the few who would, when talking to
the rebbe, speak in the third person.  One day he was asking a question
and said: "According to what the Rosh Yeshiva said" at which point the
rebbe interrupted him and asked: "Which Rish Yeshiva?"  The student
stammered: "The Rosh Yeshiva" and the rebbe again asked "which Rosh
Yeshiva?"  This went on for a few more rounds since the only answer to
the rebbe's question was "you" which the student wouldn't say.  The
rebbe finally thought he had made his point -- i.e., that use of the
third person was an affectation that he did not appreciate -- and
allowed the student to continue with his original question.

Joseph Kaplan


From: Joel Wiesen <wiesen@...>
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:38:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Teshuvot on Shackling/Hoisting before and during Slaughter

Does anyone know of teshuvot on the permissability of shackling/hoisting
animals before and during slaughter?  (I know there is one C teshuva by
Dorff and Roth.)


Shabbat Shalom,
Joel P. Wiesen, Ph.D., Director
Applied Personnel Research, 27 Judith Road, Newton, Massachusetts 02459-1715
(617) 244-8859
<Wiesen@...> ; http://www.personnelselection.com/apr.htm


From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:49:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: You/Thou

English doesn't have a polite/casual second person.  "Thou" (and "thee,"
and "thy," and so on) is singular, and "you" was originally reserved for
plural. The former has fallen into disuse, and the latter is now used
for both. This has been something of a loss: "Thou shalt not kill"
conveys "Lo Tirtzach" perfectly; "You shall not kill" doesn't quite do

Nachum Lamm


From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 23:19:24 -0800
Subject: RE: Zen and Judaism

>From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
>>IRC, Zen writings claim that their actices are 'compatible' with and
>>enhance any other religion or belief system.
>Doesn't the pasuk of "Toras Hashem Temimah," or Hashems Tora is Tamim
>("full" or "complete") tell us that our Torah does not require any
>"enhancing" from other religion or belief system?

I don't know what the context of the orginal posting is.  Rav Hershel
Schachter said that using a non-Jewish ritual as part of our Avodas
Hashem is a violation of the pasuk Devarim 12:30 "...eicho yavodo
hagoyim haelah es elohayhem vawese ken gam ani".

From: Matan Shole <thinkoncemore@...>
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 04:47:14 +0000
Subject: RE: Zen and Judaism

Perhaps.  But does that mean that WE are capable of doing so?  Also, we
study medicine and other sciences, for example, because it would be
silly to attempt to cure someone without such external (to Torah)
knowledge, relying exclusively on Torah (codes?).  Likewise, we may have
what to learn from psychology, sociology, philosophy, literature,
etc. and maybe even Zen (but not Avoda Zara).  When studied properly,
those subjects can deepen our understanding of Torah , and provide us
with a more profound and, ultimately, more meaningful yiddishkeit.



End of Volume 41 Issue 74