Volume 41 Number 94
                 Produced: Thu Jan 22  6:30:31 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Academic Status to Rabbinic Degree (2)
         [Josh Backon, Art Werschulz]
Does potential spouses really have to tell everything
         [Stephen Colman]
Meat-Birds-Fish - Insightful Midrash
         [Russell J Hendel]
More on Fish, Milk and Meat
         ["Benschar, Tal S."]
An Open and Shut Case
         [David Waysman]
Sources on Spirituality, etc.
         [R. Jeffrey Saks]
Walking into a church (2)
         [Michael Kahn, Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Yeshivot and Degrees
Zemirot (5)
         [Ari Trachtenberg, Dr. Jeffrey R. Woolf, Gil Student, Gershon
Dubin, Janice Gelb]


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Wed,  21 Jan 2004 15:27 +0200
Subject: Academic Status to Rabbinic Degree

I teach at the medical school here. Hebrew University is gravitating
toward a European model of a PhD where instead of one long dissertation,
the graduate student can get 5 articles published in peer-reviewed
journals and then write a short precis summarizing the results and
relevance of the 5 papers.

Since rabbis in the USA get a master's degree (MHL), and since Yadin
Yadin smicha engenders at least 3-4 further years of full time study
where the student (at least in Israel) is encouraged to publish articles
in one of the dozen or so halachic journals, and since there is a very
rigorous written and oral exam involved in getting Yadin Yadin smicha,
in my opinion Yadin Yadin could be equivalent to the European model of a

Last but not least: there is a third pathway: the British PhD by
publication. Someone with a BA who has extensive (15+) publications in
peer reviewed journals *or* who has published a major textbook [in our
case a Sefer halacha or a commentary on Talmud] could have the book made
into a PhD assuming it's novel and published by a non-vanity publishing

Josh Backon

From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:31:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Academic Status to Rabbinic Degree

David Riceman <driceman@...> writes:
> A Ph.D. requires a substantial novel contribution to the field.  Yadin
> yadin rquires mastery of previously known material.  The proper analogy
> is law school.

Perhaps another analogy would be a Doctor of Arts degree?
Carnegie-Mellon Unviersity grants a D.A. in Mathematical Sciences,
described as follows:

  The Doctor of Arts Degree shares all requirements and standards with
  the Ph.D., except with respect to the thesis. The D.A. thesis is not
  expected to display the sort of original research required for the
  Ph.D. thesis, but instead to demonstrate an ability to organize,
  understand, and present mathematical ideas in a scholarly way, usually
  with sufficient originality and worth to produce publishable
  work. Whenever practical, the Department provides D.A. candidates the
  opportunity to use materials developed to teach a course. While the
  typical Ph.D. recipient will seek a position which has a substantial
  research component, as at a large university or in an industrial or
  governmental research laboratory, the D.A. recipient usually will seek
  a position where research is not central.

Art Werschulz
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y? 
Internet: <agw@...><a href="http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~agw/">WWW</a>
ATTnet:   Columbia U. (212) 939-7060, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325


From: <StephenColman2@...> (Stephen Colman)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 06:00:53 EST
Subject: Does potential spouses really have to tell everything

<To add to Russell's message: What about telling a date if you had done
things that are punishable by Karies?

Now that is really frightening. If you are aware of an aveira for which
you are punishable by Koreis - that would definately affect your spouse.

However, a) we are all bechezkas Kashrus, and b) In general, we always
have the option to do teshuva, which will help wipe the slate clean and
c) In particular when a person gets married and davens the erev yom
kippur mincha prior to the chupa complete with vidui, he is like a new
person starting a new life with (hopefully) his previous aveiros behind



From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:42:48 -0500
Subject: RE: Meat-Birds-Fish - Insightful Midrash

Thought I would share this cute "evolutionary" agaddah on Meat, Birds,
and Fish.

- Mammals which are at the top of the evolutionary scale (ie complex)
- require a slaughter of two signs (foodpipe and windpipe). Birds which
- are a bit lower on the scale require slaughter of only one sign. Fish
- which are still lower require no signs. Thus the 2-1-0 mirrors the
- evolutionary complexity of the animal.

Saw this I believe in Midrash Rabbah someplace Rav Hirsch also uses it
to explain ritual impurity The closer an animal is to man the more its
death reminds man of his own vulnerability and hence the higher degree
of Toomah

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.Rashiyomi.com/


From: "Benschar, Tal S." <tbenschar@...>
Subject: More on Fish, Milk and Meat

A previous poster pointed out that while the Beis Yoseph does write that
fish and milk should not be mixed for health reasons, the Shach states
that that is a taut sopher (scribal error).  Nevertheless, it is the
practice of many Sephardim not to mix fish and milk.

This practice appears to me to contradict an express statement in the
Gemara.  I believe it is in Hullin:

Dagim shealu be k'ara mootar leachlam bekutach.  Translated, it means:
Fish which were placed on a [hot meat] platter may [still] be eaten with
dairy foods.  [Kutach was a condiment made of milk, bread crumbs and

The point of that statement is that the fish remains pareve despite
having been placed on a hot meat platter.  (The exact extent of this
leniency is debated by the commentators; some would even permit it if
the fish were COOKED in a meat pot.)  For our purposes, however, it
seems to me a pretty clear statement that one may eat fish with dairy
foods.  Why would the gemara chose fish as an example of a food
remaining pareve when eating fish with milk is unhealthy?

Anyone know of an answer to this question?


From: David Waysman <waysmand@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:02:17 +1100
Subject: An Open and Shut Case

There seems to be no universal custom as to whether the 'Pticha'
  1) shuts the Aron Hakodesh immediately he hands the Sefer Torah to
Chazan or,
  2)  waits till after 'Gadlu' to do so.

Aesthetically, it makes sense to wait so that the Chazan is bowing
towards an open Aron as well as the other Sefarim, but clearly those who
belong to the first school (including, but not just, Lubavitchers) have
some sort of reason for their action.

Is Pticha something that should be performed in a consistent manner in a
shule, or, in a healthy sign diversity is it OK for members of the one
kehilla to do it differently to each other.

David Waysman (still bereft of an LOR)


From: R. Jeffrey Saks <atid@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:20:33 +0200
Subject: Sources on Spirituality, etc.

I am looking to identify traditional Jewish texts and sources--both
classic and modern--that speak to the role of emotions in Avodat Hashem,
as well as the subjective experience in ritual and religious life. More
generally, on the centrality of "spirituality" in Judaism (I admit, of
course, that it's a "slippery" term).

Any suggestions appreciated--please reply to me directly at
<atid@...> (as well as on-list if you choose).

Jeffrey Saks


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:36:01 -0500
Subject: RE: Walking into a church

>Good thing I'm not a Cohain -- as the body of John Paul Jones lies
>their repleat with Marine Honor Guard.

>From what I understand, it is a machlokes if a cohen may be metama
(contaminate himself) to the body of a non-Jew. I was told that it is
only prohibited by a yesh omrim (one opinion) in shulchan Aruch but it
is customary to be machmir (stringent.) Ask your LOR.

From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:27:25 EST
Subject: Walking into a church

Carl Singer wrote (MJv41n91) <<Good thing I'm not a Cohain -- as the
body of John Paul Jones lies their repleat with Marine Honor Guard.>>

"Kivrei aku"m einam me'tam'im be-ohel" [=The graves of idol worshippers
do not defile in a tent] (Tosfot, Shabbat 15b s.v. ve-avira litlot). The
grave of John Paul Jones, in and of itself, would not be an issue.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:36:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Yeshivot and Degrees

>There are Yeshivas in the U.S. that grant college degrees.  I do not
>know specifically which accreditation organization has audited them.  I
>saw a resume from a fine young man who had studied at Lakewood for many
>years.  He had a Masters in, as I recall, Analytical Studies, from
>B.M.G.  Bais Medresh Gevoah (Lakewood) He also had computer skills via
>courses he had taken while in Kollel.  He was leaving Kollel (and the
>support of his father-in-law) to start making a living for his wife and

Most Yeshivas in the US are accredited by ARTS, Association of Rabbinic
and Talmudic Schools. B.M.G. is also accredited by the State of New
Jersey. As such, its graduated are able to substitute it's degree for a
B.A. for any state purpose (such as CPA exam or Law school
admitting). Of course, since the yeshiva dose not offer any secular
studies, the actual course work has to be take else where.


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:30:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Zemirot

> From: Aharon A. Fischman <afischman@...>
> Many Shabbat Zemirot have the Shem Hashem [name of G-d] as part of the
> text of the song.  When singing the zemirot should one say the Shem
> Hashem like they were davening, or just say HASHEM as if it were not
> davening?

There is a nice resposne to this on the Ohr Somayach "Ask The Rabbi"
column (http://ohr.edu/ask/ask131.htm), together with citations.
In essence, their response is that one should use the name of G-d
as written.  Best,

From: Dr. Jeffrey R. Woolf <woolfj@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:52:12 +0300
Subject: Zemirot

I seem to remember a psaq that bounced around for a long time that if
the name is recited as part of praise of God, then it may be said
straight out.  It's pretty clear, though, that this would not apply
where the tune leads one to repeat God's Name, which is not appropriate.

Jeffrey Woolf

From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:34:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Zemirot

Follow your family custom. The simple reading of halachah is that it is
entirely permissible to say G-d's name in zemiros but Rav Soloveitchik
held that the permissibility of doing so is a machlokes and he was
machmir. I believe that R' Hershel Schachter quotes this in Nefesh

When his grandson, R' Mayer Twersky, told me the same thing, he added
that it seems to him that the minhag is according to the lenient view.

Generally speaking, Ashkenazim are much stricter than Sepharadim on
issues relating to saying G-d's name. Since it boils down to a matter of
Yiras Hashem, something which is unfortunately currently in less
abundance than it once was, I think that being strict on these issues
(in absence of a family custom) is a good thing. Just my opinion.

Gil Student

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:43:38 -0500
Subject: Zemirot

Say the Shem.  Sorry, can't recall the source, but this is not my own
opinion;  I've heard it from prominent rabbis.


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:40:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Zemirot

Often, "Hashem" doesn't scan in a zemer's tune properly so I've usually
heard people use a k: "eloKim," "Koh ribon," etc.



End of Volume 41 Issue 94