Volume 42 Number 02
                 Produced: Fri Jan 30  6:02:02 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chanukah Olive Oil
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Church Entering
         [Yisrael and Batya Medad]
Divine Names in the zemiros
         [Gil Student]
Do potential spouses really have to tell everything (2)
         [Perets Mett, <FriedmanJ@...>]
Eating Contests and Halacha
Just in Time for Daf  Yomi (Hulin)
         [David Glasner]
         [Naomi Graetz]
Order of Selichot
         [Jack Gross]
Praying aloud
         [Joshua Kay]
Praying Loudly
         [Batya Medad]
Swallowing Goldfish
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Thank G-d for Tupperware
         [Andy Goldfinger]
Third Temple Comes from heaven = built by prophecy
         [Gil Student]


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:20:05 +0200
Subject: Re: Chanukah Olive Oil

>  I spoke to Rabbi Kuber (who is in charge of the OU kasherus in
> Israel) today, and he assured me the the OU did not give any hechsher to
> olive oil not fit for human consumption.
> Yehuda Landy

On the other hand, quite a few brands in Israel with other
"mehudar" hechsherim (such as the Badat"z Eida Chareidit)
did say on them "Lo le-maachal" (not to be eaten).



From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:48:09 +0200
Subject: Re: Church Entering

Sorry, but I didn't mention anything at all about a surrender.  So I
didn't "suggest" anything.

What I wrote was that Allenby entered Jerusalem on Dec. 11.  What could
be logically inferred is that if Allenby wasn't in Jerusalem on the 9th,
I'm guessing he was still on the outskirts, he didn't participate in a
ceremony in Jerusalem on that date which was a Sunday.

By the way, the Arab Mayor, El-Husseini caught a cold from waiting in
the freezing air for the Private and Sergeant who he first met to return
with a senior enough officer to accept his surrender and died three
weeks later.


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:54:04 -0500
Subject: RE: Divine Names in the zemiros

Mark Steiner wrote:
>I am having a hard time with the logic of avoiding reading the
>Divine Names in the zemiros.  After all, the authors of these
>poems included some of the greatest of the rishonim--and
>they saw fit to write these Names.

Because rishonim disagreed on many issues. Who says that we follow the
rishonim who wrote the zemiros? Furthermore, even if it is permissible
based on the plain rule, there might be a custom to refrain that
developed subsequent to the authorship of these zemiros.

Gil Student


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:53:16 +0000
Subject: Re: Do potential spouses really have to tell everything

Akiva Miller wrote:

> Let's name the spouses A and B. If A is a carrier but B is not, then
> each child has a 50% chance of being a carrier. Suppose B wants to
> insure that their child is not a carrier? Suppose B wants to insure
> that their child never has to be in the position of breaking up a
> shidduch because the other party is also a carrier?

Isn't is somewhat nonsensical to argue that people should protect
themselves against **the possibility** of one of their children carrying
a gene --Tay-Sachs-- which is not harmful in any way, but might limit by
0.25% the number of potential spouses?  Who says that your children have
to be compatible with everyone else in the world?

I don't believe that there is any requirement to tell a potential
shidduch partner if one is carrying the Tay-Sachs gene unless the other
partner is also a carrier (which could have dire consequences if they
married). Since the only thing that matters is that two carriers should
not meet and marry, once that end has been achieved there is no
obligation to reveal that one is a carrier.

Once you start suggesting that such information must be revealed, you
cannot draw the line anywhere. After all, any piece of information about
oneself could potentially have an effect on a future generation in some
miniscule way.

There are bounds to what one needs to reveal to avoid deception - not
everythign qualifies

Perets Mett

From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:59:17 EST
Subject: Re: Do potential spouses really have to tell everything

      What is your reasoning with regard to the criminal parent?  Do you
      hold that criminality is hereditary?  How does the criminal parent
      affect the marriage or future spouse?  And what do you mean by
      "criminal"? Felony conviction? Misdemeanor? Speeding ticket?

I wrote off-line to the writer and said that felony crimes in a parent
should 100% be disclosed, as should domestic violence (even misdemeanor
domestic violence). After all there are also chromosomal predilictions
toward violence.

Someone must know the precise research. It's been known for decades.


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:17:14 EST
Subject: Eating Contests and Halacha

The recent discussion with people saying that eating goldfish alive is
ossur (prohibited), even though the fish may be kosher, reminded me of a
somewhat similar issue which has concerned me in the past.

I refer to 'eating contests' using kosher food, where, as with the above
case, the food itself is not the problem, rather the way it is consumed

In recent years, I have read of various Jewish stores (perhaps
organizations as well), conducting things like 'matza ball' eating
contests, and the like (e.g. hamantashen eating contests). I guess they
are modeled after various such contests in the non-Jewish world, like an
annual 'hot-dog' eating contest which has taken place for many years at
Coney Island, Brooklyn, NYC, for many years on the 4 July holiday in the
USA (in which the goal is to eat more of the designated food item during
the contest than any other contestant).

Anyway, I think such contests should be opposed and not allowed, as they
are not in accordance with the Torah view of eating, are not healthy and
promote waste ('bal tashchis') and unhealthy and improper attitudes
toward food and eating (bizoyon ochlin, etc.).

I wonder if any Rabbis have spoken out about this phenomenon or if there
are any written responsa about it. If not, perhaps this posting can be
the first shot fired against the practice, which I think should be
opposed before it spreads further. Perhaps Rabbis who provide kosher
supervision for stores can insist that such events not be conducted by
establishments under their supervision.



From: David Glasner <DGLASNER@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:30:24 -0500
Subject: Just in Time for Daf  Yomi (Hulin)

I would just like to inform all subscribers of Mail-Jewish that my
cousin R. Shlomo Klein has (todah la-Ha-Sheim yitbarakh) just published
a new edition (with new type set and correction of typograhical errors)

Dor Revi'i on Hulin.  

The US distributor is R. Yaakov Levitz 718-377-0047

For more information call Rabbi Klein at 718-853-0034 or email him at

David Glasner


From: <graetz@...> (Naomi Graetz)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:37:25 +0530
Subject: Murder

Gerald Blidstein discussed the problem of retzach and hariga in his
definitive article, "Classical Punishment: The Classical Jewish
Discussion," which originally appeared in Judaism, Vol. 14.

Naomi Graetz
Ben Gurion University of the Negev


From: Jack Gross <ibijbgross2@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:24:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Order of Selichot

> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
> ... why the Eastern European communities changed the custom but it was
> probably because of (unfounded) worries about making insertions in
> chazarat hashats.

It's a long piece in Beis Yoseph, based on material from rishonim and
earlier acharonim.

Basically the issues are whether (a) the yachid is limited in the length
of what _personal_ requests he/she is permitted to insert "at the end
of" each of the intermediate b'rachos (lest the addition outweigh the
basic nusach), and (b) if so, whether such a limitation is waived for
Tzorchei Tzibbur.  The B.Y. is machmir -- voting "yes" on the first and
"no" on the second -- and thus favors the alternative minhag of
appending rather than inserting the s'lichos.  Such is the practice
reflected in the siddurim of Edot Hammizrah.

I believe it spread to Eastern European "Ashkenazic" (i.e., originating
in Germany) communities only under the influence of the Shulchan Aruch.

- Yaakov Gross


From: Joshua Kay <jkay@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:19:56 +1100
Subject: Praying aloud

<<Hello? where did you get that rule from? No one should daven loudly AT
ALL , and especially not at a minyan. OK, what halachic decisor of the
past 400 years has ruled in writing that you can?>>

None that I know of in writing. However, Rav Herschel Schachter records
in Mipninei HaRav that Rav Y.D. Soloveitchik's davened shemoneh esrei so
loud that it was audible to others, apparently following the custom of
his grandfather, Rav Chaim, who claimed that he could not be sure that
he was really saying the words properly unless he raised his voice

Quite amusingly, Rav Schachter recounts that a talmid once asked Rav
Y.D. Soloveitchik if he was required to answer Omen to the Rav's
shemoneh esrei brochos, to which he tentatively answered in the

I personally find audible shemoneh esrei tefillos (generally excluding
chazoras hashatz) to be extremely irritating.

Kol tuv,
Dov Kay


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:19:12 +0200
Subject: Re: Praying Loudly

There isn't much I can do up in the balcony when I hear sudden loud
claps.  I jump, lose my train of thought and can't find my kavanah.
Over the years I've complained to gabbaim, who are amazed that I expect
them to keep things quiet down there.  While we're at it, the clapping
to "different beats" during the dovening is worse than distracting.  It
offends my sense of musical unity.  It's bad enough to clap, if it's to
the tune, but not drowning out, the chazan, but there are people who
want to show their musical creativity.... oy vey.



From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:10:59 +0200
Subject: Re: Swallowing Goldfish

A few posters mentioned that eating a live fish is forbidden, as a
trangression of the prohibition "Lo tishaktzu" (commonly called Bal

Is that a prohibition against doing something that disgusts ME, or that
disgusts those who SEE me? (Or both? or either one?)

With any of the 4 possibile meanings of the rule, it is possible to have
a case where the prohibition would not apply. Particularly, if neither
the eater nor the viewer were disgusted, thereby not falling into any of
the four cases, would it be permitted to eat a live fish?

I was taught by my Zeidy z"l (grandfather, but Zeidy is a proper noun to
me, hence I have capitalized it - see other mj thread <g>) to drink raw
eggs, as he did in the shtetl in Europe.  Many people seem (for no
reason that I can fathom) to feel disgusted by the sight. Does that make
it a Torah prohibited act for me?



From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:39:08 -0500
Subject: Thank G-d for Tupperware

For those readers who do not live in the U.S. -- Tupperware is a brand
of plastic storage containers, dishes, and whatever that is sold in
"Tupperware Parties" by enterprising people (often housewives).
(http://order.tupperware.com/coe/app/home) I dislike Tupperware parties,
but I am getting to love Tupperware.

Here is why ...

I have been learning the second perek (chapter) of Chullin (a tractate
of the Talmud).  We are learning several sugyas (topics) that deal with
tuma and tahara (impurity and purity).  It is extremenly complicated and
non-intuitive.  Nowadays, the subject is largely academic, but when the
Bais HaMikdosh (temple) is rebuilt these laws will have major practical
importance. Our lives are going to change to a geat extent.

For example, it will sometimes not be sufficient merely to know that
something is tamei (impure), but also to keep track of how it became
tamei.  Kosher kitchens will be much more difficult to manage.

That is where Tupperware comes in.  It is made of plastic, and to the
best of my understanding, plastic is not mekabel tumah (capable of
becoming impure).  Tupperware, and other plastic implements and utensils
will make our lives much easier.

Might Tupperware be a good stock to buy as investment?


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:58:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Third Temple Comes from heaven = built by prophecy

Russell J Hendel wrote:
>Regarding the long discussion (v41n88) on the 3rd temple 
>coming down intact from Heaven I would use a symbolic 
>approach. HEAVEN is symbolic of PROPHECY...

How would you explain the sugya in Sukkah 41a and rishonim there?

Gil Student


End of Volume 42 Issue 2