Volume 42 Number 87
                 Produced: Mon May 31 14:32:19 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bameh Madlikin and Hassidic custom
Duchaning outside of Eretz Yisrael
         [Kenneth G Miller]
Embarassment (5)
         [Shoshana L. Boublil, Tovia Lent, Batya Medad, Tzvi Stein,
Leona Kroll]
Marrying someone with your mother's name? (2)
         [Batya Medad, Leah Aharoni]
         [Martin Stern]
Yemenite and Ashkenaz nusach
         [Martin Stern]


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 03:56:38 EDT
Subject: Bameh Madlikin and Hassidic custom

<< From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
>Mike Gerver wrote about the common practice of Teimanim and Ashkenazim
>to say Bameh Madlikin on Friday nights.

>AFAIK, this custom is universal except amongst chasidim.  Does anyone
>know when, and why, chasidim stopped saying Bameh Madlikin?

There is an interesting piece related to this entitled 'Me'eimosai korin
es 'kigavna' biarvis' by Professor Moshe Chalamish in his work
'HaKabolloh - bitefilloh, bihalocho uviminhog' (BIU), which originally
appeared in the periodical 'Sinai' (114:78-82).

He traces it back to the kloiz of Brod (Brody) in the latter half of the
18th century C.E., and perhaps also to Hassidic circles around the
Hassidic leader referred to as the 'Maggid of Mezrich'.

It seems that the Hassidim added it to their liturgy because they
thought it inspiring and relevant for that time (entrance of
Shabbos). He also notes that the fact that the Ar"i had already 'opened
the door' for the addition of passages from the Zohar into the siddur
some years before (when he added brich shmei.....when the sefer Torah is
taken out to be read, which, by the way is, to this day, not recited by
all), made it easier for them to add this additional Zoharic passage.

He does not address the question of why they removed bameh madlikin from
their siddurim instead of just adding what they wanted to add. Perhaps
over time, bameh madlikin became less meaningful to various worshippers
due to changing circumstances and conditions. While when the mishna was
written people had a wide array of possibilities from which to choose
with which to light neiros Shabbos (which a large part of bameh madlikin
talks about) (an interesting recent work entitled 'Bameh Madlikin' by
Zohar Amar et al, casts some very illuminating light on it, by the way),
in Eastern Europe many centuries later (as now, to an even greater
extent), such questions were moot to a great extent. Also, bameh
madlikin (at least according to some customs) is/was the last recitation
by the tzibbur before borchu, which is when the Hassidim wanted to
insert 'kigavnah'.

Finally, perhaps this substitution of the old Mishnaic recitation of
'bameh madlikin' with the new recitation of the Zoharic 'Kigavna' by the
Hassidim can be seen as paradigmatic of the Hassidic movement in
general, in which they at times granted themselves permission to replace
venerable customs with what they viewed as more 'spiritual' newer ones
and in which the Zohar was venerated over the Mishna and Talmud.



From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:13:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Duchaning outside of Eretz Yisrael

Yisrael Medad wrote about <<< ... changing the customs of Sfaradim who
pronounce the Priestly Blessing every day ... he would very much like to
research the origin of their custom ... >>>

This makes it sounds like the custom of duchaning every day is an
innovation which is worth investigating. But I though that this was the
original way of doing it, and it was the Ashkenazim who made the
innovation of duchaning only on Yom Tov. Have I been mistaken?

Akiva Miller

[I do not think so, it would appear to me as well that the minhag of NOT
duchaning is the one that requires the investigation and identification
as to the origin of the custom. Mod.]


From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 18:05:42 +0200
Subject: Embarassment

> From: Shoshana Ziskind <shosh@...>
> On May 25, 2004, at 6:48 AM, Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...> wrote:
> >> From: Debra Fran Baker <vze2b2n7@...>
> >> (And, well, arriving late to someone else's home on a Friday night is
> >> an even more obvious indicator.)
> >
> > It did happen one time that my wife was supposed to go on a Friday
> > night when we were invited to someone else's house.  She thought
> > people would figure it out if she came light, so as a result she
> > delayed going until Motzie Shabbos.
> It sounds more like a  matter of tsnius.

As others have mentioned, you can't always get out of a dinner at an
inconvenient time of month.  Shabbat is of course more critical than
other times b/c of the issue of men returning from shul.

Over the years I've visited Mikva'ot in many towns in Israel.  What I've
usually done when visiting on Shabbat was to take the hostess into my
confidence.  When it was my mother or mother-in-law -- it was easy to
ask her to babysit.  I really didn't have to explain why <g>.

In other cases, both my husband and I would mention the same white lie
(visiting a cousin in the evening b/c it wouldn't be possible later or
picking something up for a friend from a local woman etc.).  This would
cover not only being late (if I was late) but also the bag I carried
(relevant where there is an Eiruv).  Of course, my husband would find
ways to slow everyone down on their way from shul so that there would be
a good chance of actually getting "home" before the men.

Shoshana L. Boublil

From: Tovia Lent <sld11@...>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 21:36:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Embarassment

Though there is a mitzvah of going to the Mikvah on time, there are many
men and less so women that must travel on business and be away from
their spouse on Mikvah night. I am sure there must be Kulos to permit
the wife to go to the Mikvah on another night if circumstances do not
permit it. I happen to work night shifts and so frequently cannot be
home on Mikvah night

          Tuvia Lent

From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 20:45:29 +0200
Subject: Re: Embarassment

      > It did happen one time that my wife was supposed to go on a Friday
      > night when we were invited to someone else's house.  She thought
      > people would figure it out if she came light, so as a result she
      > delayed going until Motzie Shabbos. 

If that's the case, it's better to refuse an invitation.  One doesn't
have to state the reason, just: "thanks, but this week's a problem, how
about the morning? or would next week, or a rain check...."  Unless it's
a seudat mitzvah.


From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Subject: re: Embarassment

Just for the record (and this is a great lesson in Dan L'Chof Zchus :),
the case where my wife delayed going to the mikva because we were going
out for Fri. night was indeed a case where refusing the invitation would
be no simple matter.  It was actually an out of town trip, planned far
in advance, that was timed to coincide with a visit from friends from
overseas that we hadn't seen in a long time.

Also, I'd like to refute the comment that "you have a week's notice" of
a mikvah night and can thus plan accordingly.  That is often not the
case.  Often the "original" mikvah night is delayed by 1 or more nights
due to halachik shailos (bedikas, etc.).  Since it is sometimes
difficult to get these shailos paskened immediately (i.e. one must make
an appointment with a rav), the psak on them is also delayed sometimes.

White lies are not such a great solution, in my experience.  Many people
just do not lie well, and whenever one lies, one must keep track of the
lies to avoid inconsistencies.  For example, if you claim to have had a
migraine, a friend months later suffering a real migraine could ask you
how you dealt with it and you might have forgotten the lie and respond,
"I never had a migraine".

From: Leona Kroll <leona_kroll@...>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 06:59:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Embarassment

If the husband davens mincha well before candlelighting, the wife can
light a few minutes early, go to the mikveh, do whatever prep has to be
done at the mikveh, and dip at the earliest possible moment. This should
allow them to make the meal at a normal enough time, since the amount of
time it would take to finish and go home would probably be equal to the
time it takes people to daven in shul, complete with community
announcements, etc.  I once had to immerse on a Shabbos when we had
guests and I was home in time for my husband to catch the local Chabad
minyan (they are strict about davening only after three stars). A few
guests arrived before he did, but long after I was home.


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 08:43:53 +0200
Subject: Marrying someone with your mother's name?

      I recall hearing of some custom or halacha that prevents a man
      from marrying a woman who has the same name as his mother. What is
      the source for this, and what communities practice it? (If I'm

I don't know the source, but I do know of couples who found ways around
it. Generally the kallah either changes her name, Leah to Liat, or uses
a different nickname or her middle name.

The same for husband/father.  Before neighbors (who are very machmir,
ashkenazim) married they had to check if it was ok, because his
second/middle name was the same as her father's first.  They were told
that since he didn't use the name, it was ok.  Then over twenty years
later when her father died, their married kids wanted to name baby boys
after "grandpa" and were told by very respected poskim that they
couldn't use the exact name, since it's also the father's, and he's (ad
meah v'esrim) still alive.


[Note: The source was identified in last issue (V42#86 as tzava'ah
(ethical will) of Rav Yehudah Hachasid. Mod.]

From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 11:45:26 +0200
Subject: Marrying someone with your mother's name?

There is such a minhag. Torah Tmima relates it to the prohibition of
saying parents' names in their presence. Consequently, a husband would
not be able to call his wife by her name when his mother is around (and
vice versa).


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 06:25:00 +0100
Subject: Re: Wigs

on 31/5/04 1:27 am, I wrote:

> As it happens the Mishnah in Ketubot mentions that evidence that a woman
> went to the chuppah without a heimnuna could claim this as proof that
> she was a virgin and entitled to 200 zuz.

As I was writing from memory which can be imperfect, I made an error
which I am sure will have been noticed. The word used is hinuma not
heimnuna. The mishnah's wording is "sheyatzat b'hinuma v'roshah paru'a -
who went out with a veil and her hair uncovered" which is even clearer
than I wrote. In future I must try to check my sources more carefully.

Martin Stern


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 06:46:18 +0100
Subject: Re: Yemenite and Ashkenaz nusach

on 31/5/04 1:27 am, Leah Aharoni <leah25@...> wrote:

> The Shaami nusach is almost identical to the Sephardi nusach (edot
> hamizrach). In fact, one of the most popular shami siddurim Zehkor
> Avraham was originally published in Livorno in the 18th century. Some
> explain the meaning of "shaami" as derivative from the Hebrew word
> "sham"- there, meaning it came from someplace else. May be someone else
> could explain how the Shephardi nusach came to be used by Yemenite Jews.
> The Baladi nusach on the other hand is very different from all other
> nusachim (and is much shorter too).

The true origin of the term Shami is the Arabic name of Damascus (and
Syria generally) "Ash-Sham" meaning originally "on the left (or north)"
in contrast to Yamin, the Arabic for Yemen meaning "on the right (or
south)", cognate with the Hebrew s'mol and yamin. This probably refers
to the directions relative to Mecca. I would speculate that the word
"sham" is an abbreviation of the more usual word "shamal" when the
phrase "shamal al-Hijaz, north of the Hejaz" was first abbreviated to
"shamal Hijaz" by dropping the definite article and then misread as
"sham al-Hijaz", a common linguistic phenomenon (naranja (Sp.) -> a
norange (Eng.) -> an orange).

The origin of the Shami minhag was the import of printed siddurim from
Damascus in the 16th century which were used in the major towns and led
to the adoption of the Sephardi customs (like the Artscroll phenomenon
where people change to follow the printed instructions even when they
had previously used a different custom).

The word Baladi means "Native" in Arabic and that minhag continued to be
used in the rural areas with consequent low status. This is similar to
the situation of Orthodoxy in early 19th century Germany where, by and
large, the larger towns went over to Reform and Orthodoxy was restricted
to the unsophisticated "Dorf-Juden, village Jews".

Martin Stern


End of Volume 42 Issue 87