Volume 43 Number 16
                 Produced: Tue Jun 22  6:38:56 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Alternate uses for "banned" Sheitels
         [W. Baker]
Appropriating other Religions' Ritual Objects
         [Freda B Birnbaum]
The Curse Of Eve - a report from the secular world
Erev 17 Tammuz
         [Martin Stern]
Found Tefillin that was stolen
         [David Cohen]
Kabalas [Kabalat] Shalom
         [Bob Werman]
One-handle water faucets on Shabbat
         [Steve Albert]
Quoting Pesukim
         [David Waysman]
Single-handled faucets on Shabbat
         [Carl Singer]
Story Origin
         [Carl Singer]
URLs for Rav Bazak's article and Rav Meidan's reaction
         [Joseph I. Lauer]
What we say during Hagba
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Why stripes on tallis? (2)
         [Rose Landowne, Stan Tenen]


From: W. Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Alternate uses for "banned" Sheitels

> 2 points. One is that giving something to someone else gives hano'oh to
> the giver, especially to a charity. Secondly, it is quite possible that
> one or more of the beneficiaries of this charity may be Jewish.

If one cannot obtain hannoh from avoda zara, then one would not be doing
a mitzvah by donation ones suspect sheitel.  As long as you do not take
a tax deduction for this donation how would you benefit?  Public

IF you worry about donating to Jews inadvertanly, make sure of the
location of the place you make the donation to.  This is what I do with
the chamatz we cooect at food drives that we donate to various feeding
places before Pesach.

Wendy Baker


From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:25:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Appropriating other Religions' Ritual Objects

Regarding the discussion of the use of "novena" candles:

> They may have no Jewish association, but they certainly have a religious 
> one. Those candles are lit by Catholics - a novena is a Catholic ritual. 
> The Catholic Encyclopedia on-line defines it as "A nine days' private or 
> public devotion in the Catholic Church to obtain special 
> graces...Through the novena to Our Lady of Lourdes, through that to St. 
> Anthony of Padua or some other saint, the faithful seek and find help 
> and relief." The candles usually have a "picture" of a saint on them.
> I don't know what the halacha is regarding appropriating ritual objects 
> from another faith for utilitarian use by Jews, but something feels 
> wrong about this to me. It's not quite the same as the Indian 
> hair/sheitel question, and as always CYLOR, but I wouldn't recommend 
> using such candles.

A distinction between the candles described and the Indian hair shaitels
is that the hair has ALREADY been offered to the idol.  The candles,
purchased from the grocery store, have not yet been used.  Someone MIGHT
use them in a Catholic ritual, or might use them for light in a

Obviously if they have other religions' imagery on them they are

Of course, if you're a chaplain in the army, and the Catholic priest
asks you to lend him a bottle of your wine because he's run out...

Or Madonna wants to borrow your tefillin... (WHERE on earth did she get

Freda Birnbaum, <fbb6@...>


From: Lynn <lynn@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:15:35 -0400
Subject: The Curse Of Eve - a report from the secular world

I keep debating with myself about whether it's better to keep my mouth
closed on this one. I'm rather less knowledgeable than most posters to
this list on subjects of halacha, but as someone who's spent most of my
life in the secular world, here's something I *do* know about. In places
where sexuality before marriage is the norm, where women and men are
pretty educated about sexuality, and where women are accustomed to
making independent choices about all other matters in their lives (not
sure if all these factors are necessary or predictave) women are as
likely as not the ones to be the initiators in sexual matters and that
can include being the ones to state in clear language what they want. I
don't have any stats that indicate whether this is "some" or "most"
women, but if you expect the frum community to inheret from the secular
world, be prepared!



From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:03:09 +0100
Subject: Re: Erev 17 Tammuz 

> Martin Stern wrote:
>> The restrictions only apply from amud hashachar or, in high latitudes
>> where there is no proper night, from halachic midnight.

Several correspondents have queried this and they are correct. I was
referring only to the fast and not the mourning customs which commence
when the day begins the previous evening or, for someone davens ma'ariv
early after plag haminchah, as soon as they do so. I apologise for this
carelessness in presentation.

Martin Stern


From: David Cohen <bdcohen@...>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:34:13 -0400
Subject: Found Tefillin that was stolen

A pair of tefillin that had been seemingly stolen, over 2 years ago, has
emerged in Manhattan. There has not been success in contacting the name
Gershon Feldman.
If you know anyone that their tefillin was lost, please let them know

For more info, please contact <ZCMUR@...>



[Note: I have confirmed with the above email address that this is a
valid request. Mod.]


From: <RWERMAN@...> (Bob Werman)
Date: Sun,  20 Jun 2004 15:16 +0200
Subject: Kabalas [Kabalat] Shalom

Can someone help me with an expression that I have found in a chabad
work: kabalas [kabalat] shalom.  I know what each word means; my problem
is with the combination.

Thanks in advance.
__Bob Werman


From: <Salbertjewish@...> (Steve Albert)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:45:20 EDT
Subject: Re: One-handle water faucets on Shabbat

>      I follow my Rebbi, Rabbi Shlomo Singer on Passaic NJ.  He turns
>      down the hot water temperature setting before Shabbot starts.  The
>      temperature should be less than that which would feel hot (~40C or
>      104F).  Than you can use hot or cold water on Shabbot.
>      Shmuel Norin


I think there's still at least one problem with this solution of turning
down the temperature, and there may be several:

1.  It will take some time for the water in the tank to cool down to
that lower temperature.  Until then, the water will be hotter, and as
you use the hot water, cold water will flow into the tank and be heated
up by the water already in the tank to a point which may very well
constitute bishul.  This seems an unavoidable problem, unless one turns
down the thermostat long enough before Shabbos to be sure that the water
in the tank has cooled down to the desired point.  (If the hot water
heater's tank is well-insulated it may take some time for the water
inside to cool down.)

2.  If you mix hot and cold water at your tap before the water in the
hot water tank has cooled down sufficiently, then depending on the
temperature of the resulting mixture, you may have caused that cold
water to be "cooked" as well.

3.  Another poster warned that some systems have an electric pump which
is activated when hot water is used.

4.  Eventually, as "hot" water is drained and cold water flows in, the
thermostat will trigger the heating mechanism.  Whether that would be a
psik reisha would seem to depend on factors such as the amount of water
used, the capacity of the tank, the range of temperature variation
allowed by the thermostat, and the temperature of the incoming water
(icy water in January will lower the temperature more than warm water in
August).  On the other hand, perhaps the heating mechanism is already
running, so that more use won't activate it.  That's an unlikely
scenario, but must happen occasionally; is that enough to move it out of
the category of psik reisha?  (Note the other problems mentioned above
would remain.)

I'm not a posek, but this "solution" seems somewhat dubious to me.

Kol tuv,
Steve Albert


From: David Waysman <waysmand@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:51:50 +1000
Subject: Quoting Pesukim

Yakir stated

>If you want to be "picky" (and show how makpid you are), what should be
>said is:
>"Vzot haTora asher sam Moshe lifnei Bnei Yisrael."
> Without continuing "al pi ...."
> -- or --
> add Bamidbar (B'midbar?) 9, 23 (or 10, 13 ?).
> This is because we should not "quote" pesukim that don't exist or that
> are only part pesukim.

Yakir may not be right about not quoting part psukim.  For instance, the
brachah - yotzer ohr ovoreh choshech - uvoreh et hakol.  If you check
out the source Isaiah 45:7, the final words should be uvoreh et HaRah !!

Tangentially, we chant Ets Chaim Hi when doing Hagbahah, a clear
reference to the Torah, but if you check out Mishlei, the Ets Chaim is
NOT the Torah, but rather Chochmah, or Wisdom. Is it not misleading to
deliberately misquote the passuk ?

Best Wishes,

David Waysman


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:54:14 -0400
Subject: RE: Single-handled faucets on Shabbat

    For the record, I know someone who turns off their hot water heater
    before Shabbat.  This way he can use whatever hot water that is in the
    heater (50 gallons) on Shabbat.

Not so clear.  I believe previous postings have discussed the problem
that even if the hot water heater is turned off (that is the gas or
electricity for heating elements are turned off.)  that using hot water
(that is turning on the tap) causes an equal amount of cold water to
enter into the hot water heater.  This cold water is heated by coming in
contact with the remaining hot water in the heater.  Depending on the
temperature of that hot water we may nonetheless have an issue.  -- If
turning off the hot water heater implies turning off the (cold water)
intake valve, then no hot water will flow when any of the taps are
turned on.

Carl Singer


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 07:59:09 -0400
Subject: Story Origin

Whenever certain members of my community start off a story and it 
contains a combination of the following words:

    De (a local variant of "the")

    Previous  (optional) -- or "erhshter"  i.e. first, etc.

    Rebbe  (Lubavitch, of course, by context)

    Oht Gezukt  (said, or my properly,  once said)  -- or --  Oht
    ____    (any verb here will do)

I classify the story as fable.  BUT -- and this is (I believe)
important, I see that the story provides guidance, chizuk or comfort to
the teller / adherent.

There are some interesting business books in the field of "knowledge
management" that focus on the power of stories to instill cultural
changes in organizations.  Maybe the MBA's are catching on.

Carl Singer


From: Joseph I. Lauer <josephlauer@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 07:55:19 -0400
Subject: URLs for Rav Bazak's article and Rav Meidan's reaction

    The URL for Rav Bazak's article is


    The URL for Rav Meidan's reaction is


    Joseph I. Lauer
    Brooklyn, New York


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:38:22 +0300
Subject: Re: What we say during Hagba

      Yakir <yakirhd@...> stated:

Since the writer suggested being "picky," I would add that if you want
to be picky, then you would say hagbaha or hagbahat hatorah or hagbahat
hasefer.  I don't know any Hebrew word "hagba."

      If you want to be "picky" (and show how makpid you are), what
      should be said is:
      "Vzot haTora asher sam Moshe lifnei Bnei Yisrael."
      This is because we should not "quote" pesukim that don't
      exist or that are only part pesukim.

Regarding the seifa [last part - Mod.], that is in accordance with the
Mishna Berura, while the Arukh Hashulhan permits.

Regarding the reisha [first part - Mod], I would say that anything that
is not an actual passuq can be termed a "passuq that does not exist."
If I may not utter something that is not a passuq, my speech will be
very limited.

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: <ROSELANDOW@...> (Rose Landowne)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 07:20:13 EDT
Subject: Re: Why stripes on tallis?

Someone recently told me that in Europe, different areas of population
had different stripe traditions, and you could tell where someone was
from from the stripe pattern on his talit, sort of like Scottish clan

Rose Landowne

From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:44:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Why stripes on tallis?

The stripes don't have to be black, and they can be wide or thin, or both.

The tallit is presaged by the ketonot passim (_STRIPED_ tunic) that
Jacob gives to Joseph.

It memorializes the patterns of creation at the beginning of B'reshit
(and demonstrates that these patterns were known going back to the
patriarchs -- which in part explains how the mitzvot could have been
kept before Mattan Torah). This may be the _original_ "Bible
Code". <smile>

Over the centuries, the details of the geometry of the original design
have been lost. But the banding or striping has been retained, at least
symbolically and artistically. If there are different minhagim on this
I'm sure someone else will tell us about them.

For a picture of a reconstruction of the Ur-Tallis (based on the
sequence of letters in B'reshit 1:1), go to

When the tzitzis at the four corners are brought together, the
rectangular tallis becomes a torus (doughnut, inner-tube shape).

There's lots more I could say, but it won't make much sense without
looking at the reconstruction, so have a look, and then if anyone asks,
I'll be pleased to respond.



End of Volume 43 Issue 16