Volume 43 Number 22
                 Produced: Fri Jun 25  6:46:58 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

17th of Tammuz
         [Michael Feldstein]
Ashkenazi Custom of naming after deceased family members
Bride & Groom Fasting - length of weddings, etc.
         [Carl Singer]
         [N Miller]
Illegal Torah website
         [Keith Bierman]
Mizmor Shir L'yoim Hashabos
         [Carl Singer]
One-handle water faucets (3)
         [Stuart Cohnen, Shmuel Norin, Michael Mirsky]
One-handle water faucets on Shabbat
         [David Charlap]
Quoting Pesukim
         [Gershon Dubin]
Reactions to Rav Bazak's Article
         [Nathan Lamm]
         [Yisrael Medad]
Why stripes on tallis?
         [Andrew Marks]


From: <MIKE38CT@...> (Michael Feldstein)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:54:50 EDT
Subject: 17th of Tammuz

I wonder whether those who would allow a l'chaim would differentiate
between an erev of a fast day that occurred on the exact day and one
that was pushed off a day because of Shabbos (which often occurs on the
17th of Tammuz).

Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT


From: HB <halfull2@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:30:00 -0400
Subject: Ashkenazi Custom of naming after deceased family members

Interested in knowing when the custom of naming newborn children after
deceased family members began.


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:34:56 -0400
Subject: Bride & Groom Fasting - length of weddings, etc.

It seems that many weddings are set for late in the day (but usually
before Shkhia) -- besides the enormity of the day and the pressure
associated with same, in the summer this can mean perhaps 15 hours of
fasting -- are their communities that do otherwise or have devised

If the wedding were to be scheduled after Shkia do the bride & groom
fast during the previous day - or only from Shkiah. Are night time (post
shkiah) weddings common in any communities?  I know they are
permissible, I was at one wedding where the Shmorg, etc., ran late and
the Ketubah had to be re-written to the "next" day.

We have found that when a weekday wedding runs long (bride & groom come
down from Yichud after 10PM) -- then many people have to run home to get
some sleep before next work day -- and thus miss the formal sheva
brochas benching -- possibly even missing the meal.

(Personally, we favor Sunday afternoon weddings.)  

Carl A. Singer


From: N Miller <nmiller@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:09:05 -0400
Subject: Hats

If the matter of wigs has been settled--for the time being--I would like
to move to another item of headgear.  Mark Twain went to Palestine in
1857 and describes the 'outlandish' hats worn by the Jews of Tiberias.
By this I assume he meant the shtrayml. It is quite likely that he saw
hasidim there, since (especially hasidic) immigration to Palestine had
begun in the 18th century.  Now the question: does anyone know which
Rebbe's followers were most numerous in Tiberias and the Galilee?  I've
mislaid whatever notes I may once have had.  Thanks in advance.

Noyekh Miller


From: Keith Bierman <Keith.Bierman@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:25:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Illegal Torah website

>From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
>b) but what interests me is: is DBS paying for the right to republish,
>if digitally or otherwise, some 15,000 volumes?  If so, who is getting
>the money - the publisher or family heirs?
>I know that some of these books are hundreds of years old.

I am not a Lawyer but as I understand it...

Until relatively recent times, (less than 300 years) there was no
secular copyright (in any consistent form across the world). Then, there
were a patchwork of laws, all characterized by a finite (and relatively
limited after the author's death) time span --- after which, texts fell
into the public domain and could be reproduced or used as the source for
derived works without any consent of the author's heirs.

Of course, the "Disney Act" in the US has extended copyright on "new"
works (from the time of the first Mickey Mouse film) onward, essentially

For a good treatment of the overall secular, US issues around copyright
Lawrence Lessig has written several books. He has a great online lecture
available in various formats: http://randomfoo.net/oscon/2002/lessig/

>And I am going to guess that the story of how these books were obtained
>and scanned (perhaps from libraries, etc.) may also be a matter of
>Halachic deliberation of mitzvah ha'ba'ah b'eveirah or just plain gezel,

I would be very interested in pointers to halachic equivalents of
copyright.  Especially in the area of Divray Kodesh, it would have
seemed to me that when Secular law doesn't forbid it, republishing such
works of long gone Sages would be a Mitzvah, not an Avera!

Keith H. Bierman    <keith.bierman@...>|


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:48:35 -0400
Subject: Mizmor Shir L'yoim Hashabos

Raish Mem Bais  --  Heh

>> One of my sons pointed out to me and to a "tardy" z'man minyan that on
>> Friday night it is, according to (as I recall) the Shlaw in the Aruch
>> HaShulchan a sakuneh (danger) to say "Mizmor Shir L'yom HaShabbat"
>> after Shkiyah.  This would, of course, imply davening Mincha BEFORE
>> shkiyah.
> I was unable to locate this in the Orukh Hashulchon. Can we please
> have  a reference? 

Carl A. Singer


From: Stuart Cohnen <cohnen@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:38:33 -0400
Subject: Re: One-handle water faucets

>From: Carl Singer <casinger@...> writes
>>    For the record, I know someone who turns off their hot water heater
>>    before Shabbat.  This way he can use whatever hot water that is in the
>>    heater (50 gallons) on Shabbat.
> Not so clear.  <snip>

There is an easy way around this problem. What we do in my house, is
turn off the gas for the last two showers. By the time the second person
is done, the water in the tank is no longer Yad Soledes (below 104),
therefore any cold water entering the tank on shabbos will not be cooked
(mevoshel). Problem solved. Of course, you must take in account the size
of the tank and how hot the water is normally. A little experimentation
is required. 

Stuart Cohnen

From: <Engineered@...> (Shmuel Norin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:46:05 -0400
Subject: One-handle water faucets

Steve Albert and others commented on my rebbi's way of handling the hot
water issue.  He wrote as follows:

> I think there's still at least one problem with this solution of turning
> down the temperature, and there may be several:
> 1.  It will take some time for the water in the tank to cool down to
> that lower temperature.  Until then, the water will be hotter, and as
> you use the hot water, cold water will flow into the tank and be heated
> up by the water already in the tank to a point which may very well
> constitute bishul.  This seems an unavoidable problem, unless one turns
> down the thermostat long enough before Shabbos to be sure that the water
> in the tank has cooled down to the desired point.  (If the hot water
> heater's tank is well-insulated it may take some time for  the water
> inside to cool down.)
> 2.  If you mix hot and cold water at your tap before the water in the
> hot water tank has cooled down sufficiently, then depending on the
> temperature of the resulting mixture, you may have caused that cold
> water to be "cooked" as well.

It is fairly easy to get around this problem.  Just turn the water off
one or two showers before Shabbot begins.  A 40 to 50 gal hot water
heater cools rapidly after a 10 minute shower and no heating (10 minutes
x 3 gal/min = 30 gal which replaces over half of the volume).  This way
you still have some heat in the water to wash Friday night dishes.  Then
Saturday afternoon dishes can wait until Shabbot is over and you have
turned up the water again.  This solves both problems above.

The problem of the hot water heater still going on is the same as
opening the refrigerator door when the motor is not running or even
opein up the front door of your house in the winter when the furnace is
off.  Of course, if somebody has an electric pump on there hot water
heaters (not common) this solution would not work.

Shabbot Shalom,
Shmuel Norin

From: Michael Mirsky <b1ethh94@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:56:52 -0400
Subject: One-handle water faucets

Carl Singer Said:

>Not so clear. I believe previous postings have discussed the problem 
>that even if the hot water heater is turned off (that is the gas or 
>electricity for heating elements are turned off.) that using hot water 
>(that is turning on the tap) causes an equal amount of cold water to 
>enter into the hot water heater. This cold water is heated by coming in 
>contact with the remaining hot water in the heater. Depending on the 
>temperature of that hot water we may nonetheless have an issue. -- If 
>turning off the hot water heater implies turning off the (cold water) 
>intake valve, then no hot water will flow when any of the taps are 
>turned on. 

Exactly!  So really the only solution is to turn off the cold water
intake valve for the hot water heater before Shabbat.  What I had been
doing is leave the hot water on, but I set the faucet handle to the full
cold position before turning it on, but on further thought, this could
lead to unintentional mistakes (easy to forget), so shutting off the hot
water is the best solution.

Michael Mirsky  <mirskym@...>


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:52:03 -0400
Subject: Re: One-handle water faucets on Shabbat

Steve Albert wrote:
> I think there's still at least one problem with this solution of turning
> down the temperature, and there may be several:
[Same point as quoted above. Mod]

This one, at least, is easy to deal with.  After you turn the
temperature down, start using hot water.  This will cause the tank to be
refilled with cold water, cooling the contents down.

As for how much hot water you have to draw to do this, that would depend
on the size of your tanks and a few other factors.

An activity that uses a lot of hot water (like showering) will probably
be sufficient.  Maybe you can set the thermostat down just before the
last household member takes his pre-Shabbos shower.  The last shower
will purge most of the hotter water from the tank.  Just be prepared for
your shower to get colder as it progresses. :-)

Your other problems (electric pump, psik reisha) still apply, of course.

-- David


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:20:59 -0400
Subject: Quoting Pesukim

From: David Waysman <waysmand@...>

<<Tangentially, we chant Ets Chaim Hi when doing Hagbahah, a clear
reference to the Torah, but if you check out Mishlei, the Ets Chaim is
NOT the Torah, but rather Chochmah, or Wisdom. Is it not misleading to
deliberately misquote the passuk ?>>

In Mishlei, any mention of Chochmah means the Torah.



From: Nathan Lamm <nelamm18@...>
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:36:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Reactions to Rav Bazak's Article

Just a note re: Rav Yochanan ben Zakai. The situation is so vastly
different (as, for that matter, is that of the meraglim, or of Yirmiyah,
or anything else in our history) that I don't think we can try to bring
"proofs" from there. I should also point out that R.  Yochanan ben Zakai
worried to his dying day whether he did the right thing, so kal vachomer
we shouldn't be so quick to use him as proof.

Nachum Lamm


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:09:32 +0200
Subject: Stripes

Re Rose Landowne's comment that
> ...in Europe, different areas of population
> had different stripe traditions, and you could tell where someone was
> from from the stripe pattern on his talit, sort of like Scottish clan
> tartans."

I recall an article of years ago detailing the distinctions between
various Hassidic courts as per shape of hat, which side this or that
appeared, coat, color, stripes, etc.  In other words, a haberdashery cum
clothier guide.

Anyone know what I am referring to?

Yisrael Medad


From: Andrew Marks <machmir@...>
Subject: Re: Why stripes on tallis?

I'm pretty sure that this is just a Roman thing that we have,
ironically, kept alive.  I've also heard some people say that it's
"zecher l'techeles," but that doesn't really explain the black or white
stripes, and, IMHO, it just sounds forced.

> From: Nathan G. Lamm <nelamm18@...>
> -Black may simply have been the cheapest dye.

I've got a friend studying textiles and apparels, and from the number
of times I have heard her complain about how difficult it is to dye
something black (for example, apparently it has to be dyed several
times or it will come out brown), I think it's safe to say that black
is not the cheapest dye.



End of Volume 43 Issue 22