Volume 44 Number 16
                    Produced: Thu Aug 12 21:16:16 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Arnold's Dairy Bread (3)
         [Binyomin Segal, Sam Gamoran, Eli Turkel]
Dairy Bread (2)
         [Y. Askotzky, Batya Medad]
Dairy Bread and Cakes
         [Martin Stern]
Dairy Cake (6)
         [Elozor M Teitz, Yisrael Medad, Andrew Marks, Gershon Dubin,
David I. Cohen, Batya Medad]
Pas Yisroel (2)
         [Chaim Tatel, Carl Singer]


From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:27:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Arnold's Dairy Bread

> [It has also been pointed out to me in a private email that the original
> hechsher was not OU, but a different hechsher (but not the triangle
> K). My recollection is more on the removal of the named hechsher from
> the dairy breads and the plain K-dairy on the dairy breads, and that
> being quite a number of years ago, not just a year ago. It is also
> possible I am thinking of a different brand, but I clearly remember the
> discussions at the time about the different opinions and exactly the
> issue Israel brings up now, can one continue to treat the K-dairy as if
> it is the same as the previous named hechsher with the caveat that the
> named hechsher no longer accepted the marking as sufficient to permit
> the dairy aspect. Avi]

I am fairly certain the original hechsher was the Chof-K. I grew up
eating Arnold's brick oven white bread. A dairy bread that was under the
chof-k. Was nothing like it. I recall that the chof-k changed their
policy around 20-25 years ago.

At the time, I recall discussing that the distinctive paper wrapper
inside the bag might serve as a siman, but that the simple reading of
shulchan aruch requires the siman in the bread's shape.


From: Sam Gamoran <Sgamoran@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:31:15 +0300
Subject: Arnold's Dairy Bread

Way back when I was living at the Young Israel of Cornell (1973-77) we
served Arnold's bread.  The "Brick Oven" white bread was dairy and the
rye bread was pareve.  I think that it was under supervision of the
khaf-K but I could be mistaken after so many years.  The dairy bread was
a minor nuisance but we served it in the wrapping bag (stayed fresher
that way) and managed to keep things straight.

One time we started having reliability trouble with the Arnold's
delivery man.  For whatever reason he didn't turn up more than once and
we ran short.  The kitchen steward, looking for an alternative, turned
to the competition - the Thomas's delivery man.  He promised reliable
delivery and his white bread was certified parve.  We even got English
muffins added to the menu!

It seemed like a winning situation till the first delivery.  The white
bread was certified parve - but the Thomas's rye bread was marked dairy

I don't remember which company we stayed with...

Sam Gamoran
Hashmonaim Israel

From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:31:55 +0300
Subject: Arnold's Dairy Bread

[It has also been pointed out to me in a private email that the original
hechsher was not OU, but a different hechsher >

My recollection was that Thomas muffins had an OU and was dairy.
Muffins are not quite a bread but not a cake either. Don't know that
qualifies as a halachic marker.

I also remember in my Yoreh Deah class (eons ago) there was a debate
about margarine. The rebbe felt that bread that had margarine needed
some sort of marker as butter and margarine are interchangeable.  Most
of the students felt that margarine has become so standard that it is
even before butter and so not a problem.

Eli Turkel


From: Y. Askotzky <sofer@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:52:23 +0200
Subject: Dairy Bread

My first reaction to claiming that an OU-D on the bread wrapper is
insifficient and I would bet this is the opionion of the majority that
argues. What good is a siman on a wrapper when the bread is removed and
put on a plate, in a lunch box, etc? Hence the need for the actual bread
to have a different appearance.

Yerachmiel Askotzky, certified sofer & examiner
<sofer@...>  www.stam.net  1-888-404-STAM(7826)  718-874-8220

From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:35:15 +0200
Subject: Re: Dairy Bread

	are now discussing -- where there is a siman to allow people to
	recognize the bread as in fact being dairy; the other is when
	eating a dairy meal on Shavuot.

Why can one serve/bake generally unacceptable bread on Shavuot?  Just
because "some families" do it, doesn't mean that it's really halachikly
permitted.  Are the left-overs destroyed, so they won't get mixed with
the parve?  And if not, you're back at square one...



From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:25:12 +0100
Subject: Re: Dairy Bread and Cakes

on 12/8/04 11:01 am, David Charlap <shamino@...> wrote:
> When I was growing up, it was understood that all cakes are dairy.
> Butter was a necessary ingredient for any kind of cake.

David may well be correct but this is totally irrelevant to the problem
in hand. Only dairy (or meaty) bread were banned NOT cake.

Sometimes I get the impression that some posters do not read the items
on which they pass comment. (cut this if you consider it flaming but I
have noticed it on several occasions and it is very irritating)

[I have left it in, and I would also appreciate if people would read
carefully both what they are responding to as well as what they
write. However, it is also true that often a topic threads and morphs
into a different sometimes related, sometimes barely, subject. Mod]

Martin Stern


From: Elozor M Teitz <remt@...> 
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:17:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Dairy Cake

<Since people expect bread to be parve, and dairy bread looks like parve
bread....  very problematic and confusing.  IMHO the same should be for
cakes.  But I never heard of a halacha for cakes, contrary to the bread

The reason for the prohibition on bread is because it is eaten with
other foods, and on might eat the dairy bread with meat.  Cake is not
generally eaten with meat; hence no decree was made againt dairy cakes.


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:53:28 +0200
Subject: Dairy Cake

My wife wrote the following on the dairy bread issue:

>very problematic and confusing.  IMHO the same should be for cakes.
>But I never heard of a halacha for cakes, contrary to the bread issue.

I can give testimony that when sent to Shiloh's grocery store to buy
cakes for Shabbat, I have occasionally picked up dairy cakes by mistake
and only while waiting on line with time to spare to read all the
ingredients did I notice that instead of a Parveh label, it read Dairy.
The packaging is identical.  When I pointed out that at least the cakes
should be kept separate if not even labelled, I received a non-commital
response from those in charge.

Yisrael Medad

From: Andrew Marks <machmir@...>
Subject: Re: Dairy Cake

There is no such prohibition for cakes.  Specifically, anything that is
either in a special form (like most pastries) or is not eaten at the
main part of the meal (such as desserts) are extempt from this
requirement.  See siman 97 of Yoreh Deah for a full treatment of this


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:11:18 GMT
Subject: Dairy Cake

From: David Charlap <shamino@...>

<<Since (at least until very recently) people always assumed that cake
was dairy, there was no issue of people getting confused>>

I don't believe this is true if it ever was.  Bakery cakes are virtually
all pareve (that is, from kosher bakeries; I don't know about any
others) and should be able to be considered so, same as bread.

Danishes or other pastries come both ways even in kosher bakeries so
that is presumably sufficient siman to distinguish. But making a dairy
sponge or chocolate cake would be very problematic.


From: <bdcohen@...> (David I. Cohen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:41:51 -0400
Subject: Dairy Cake

<<If most people really are now assuming that all cakes are pareve, then
maybe a ban against dairy cake would be in order.  But I don't think it
will ever happen.  Any rabbi that issued such a ban would face a revolt
from the community when all the women find out that they are no longer
allowed to bake anything in their grandmother's recipe book.
-- David  >>

The original ban on dairy bread was a gezera d'rabbanan (Rabbinic
decree).  In our times, our rabbis no longer have the authority to
impose new gezerot. Although, banning dairy cake may be a good idea (or
not), a new gezera could not be promulgated, whether or not the
community would revolt. (Truthfully, in today's "lets find a new chumra"
climate, I am not sure many would revolt, but that's another issue).

David I. Cohen

From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:54:02 +0200
Subject: Re: Dairy Cake

	Since (at least until very recently) people always assumed that
	cake was dairy, there was no issue of people getting confused.
	There's no

Huh?  So what was served on Shabbat, for dessert?  In the '60's, a good
40 years ago, I remember being served cakes.

And who are "people?"  Guess we come from very different worlds.

The dairy cake/cookie situation (besides the obvious cheesecake) is
very serious.  The cakes look the same, and so many recipes have milk.
I always, from the time I started baking, made a point of keeping
everything parve, but once my daughters baked by themselves from an
Israeli recipe book, and only later I discovered that my loaf pan had
become dairy.  They just followed the recipe as written.

Parve cakes are the norm in Israel.  Many of the best bakers are sfardi,
and they have almost no dairy in their tradition.  Also, today with the
new awareness of lactose intolorance in adults, it's important to make
dairy foods well-labeled.



From: Chaim Tatel <chaimyt@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:34:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Pas Yisroel

Stephen Phillips asked: "Further to the discussion about Arnold's bread,
am I right in thinking that the bread of bakeries in the United States
such as Arnold's (which I believe is not a Jewish bakery) is not Pas
Yisroel [bread made by a Jew]?"

The short answer is "Yes, you can get Pas Yisrael bread from a US

There are many commercial bakeries in the US that have kosher
supervision. Some of these are actually "Pas Yisrael."  For instance,
everything baked at the Albertsons bakery in Mercer Island (near
Seattle, WA) is Pas Yisrael. Supervision is Vaad HaRabanim of Greater
Seattle.  (I was the mashgiach responsible for setting up the 5 kosher
departments at the Albertsons - bakery, fresh meat, fish, produce, and
deli).  The kosher bakery at the Albertsons in Portland, OR, has a
similar setup and is under the O-U.  I believe the O-U supervised
bakeries at other Albertsons are also Pas Yisrael.  


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:23:27 -0400
Subject: Pas Yisroel

What is (or what are?) the currently accepted standards to be labeled
Pas Yisroel by the various major kashrus agencies?

Is it sufficient for the oven to have been lit by a Jew (* or as a
result of actions by a Jew) to be labeled Pas Yisroel by various kashrus

* - there have been Rube Goldberg approaches where remote communications
    started a device which, in effect, lit a fire.  So, in essence, one
    could call up a distant bakery (factory) and light the pilot light

Carl Singer


End of Volume 44 Issue 16