Volume 44 Number 25
                    Produced: Wed Aug 18  7:26:29 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Changing Names: Why the Kotzker Rebbe Did It
Chassidim vs Misnagdim
         [Irwin Weiss]
Chumrot At Other's  Expense
         [Allen Gerstl]
Dairy Bread
Dairy Buns
         [Carl Singer]
Dairy Cake
         [Carl Singer]
Font Size in Siddur
         [David and Toby Curwin]
Jewish source?
         [Robert Israel]
Labelling dairy products clearly
         [Shayna Kravetz]
non-Jews at a Seder
         [Ben Katz]
Non-Jews at seder (was: Mixed Weddings)
         [Mike Gerver]
Siddur Layout (2)
         [Carl Singer, Avi Feldblum]
"Unmarried Girls" [sic]
         [Ben Katz]


From: c.halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:20:03 -0500
Subject: Changing Names: Why the Kotzker Rebbe Did It

Shalom, All:

Various people have been speculating why a famous rabbi would change his
name. I recall that some years ago the family of the Kotzker Rebbe told
me he changed his name from "Halpern" to "Morgenstern" because he was
wanted by the anti-Semitic Russian authorities under the "Halpern" name.

Charles Chi (Yeshaya) Halevi


From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:41:33 -0400
Subject: Chassidim vs Misnagdim

I am reminded of the saying, "Like a piece of Matzoh, each argument
has two sides."

Irwin E. Weiss, Esq.


From: Allen Gerstl <acgerstl@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:41:55 -0400
Subject: Chumrot At Other's  Expense

Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
>>In later life, I was able to confirm, that this was in fact halachicly
>>permitted because  . . .
>No, this is incorrect.  Or, actually, it is the halacha with respect to
>a nonJew.  For a child, the halacha (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 343:1)
>is that "it is not permitted to habituate him/her in chillul Shabbos,
>even in matters that are only rabbinically forbidden.
>The Mishna Berura gives an example of giving the minor a key to carry in
>a carmelis; quite similar to your case.  Only if the person doing the
>rabbinical melacha is a nonJew, AND it's for a mitzva (or public need or
>kavod haberios) would it be permitted.

Here is a somewhat related case: the use of children to faciliate an
adult keeping a chumra [stingency] were the commonly followed halachah
is that the act is permitted.

A respected and well-liked ben-Torah is machmir to not open a
refrigerator unless the compressor motor is operating.

He had been requested to deliver a devar torah on Shabbat morning after
keriat ha-Torah and before speaking he decided to make kiddush so as to
then eat and have the energy to speak.

He asked a boy of about nine years of age to open the shul refrigerator
for him as the compressor was not yet on and he wished to remove some
wine to make Kiiddush.  Time was of he essence and he could not wait for
the compressor to eventually come on. The child was a bit taken aback
and asked why (perhaps because he wasn't accustomed to someone waiting
for the refrigerator compressor motor to activate before opening the
refrigerator door) and he was told that his own father would explain the
matter to him.

The boy's family- in all likelihood- follow a common halachic opinion
that a refrigerator may be opened without waiting for the compressor
motor to activate. So the boy did not violate what he had been taught as
to the proper halacha.

I find a similar problem with fathers who are machmir to not carry
notwithstanding the existence of an eruv and having their children carry
their talis bag within the area of the local eruv.  In each instance the
child is not being asked to do something against the halacha but is
facilitating the keeping of a chumra [stringency] by an adult.  We had a
previous discussion some years ago on Mail-Jewish as to wives pushing
baby-carriages while their husbands refrained from doing so as the
latter were machmir as to a local eruv.

A spouse may be acting voluntarily; however In the case of the child,
while he/she is not being used to violate the halachah, I question the
voluntariness of the practice and whether it is not l poor chinuch. The
child is being used as a facilitator for someone else's allegedly higher
level observance through that child's allegedly lower level of
observance.  I would appreciate hearing if this is discussed in any
known sources.



From: <ROSELANDOW@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:41:49 EDT
Subject: Re: Dairy Bread

> With all this discussion, I'm pretty sure that Pepperidge Farm
> products are OU-D (at least those products that are certified).  In
> particular, ISTR being especially surprised by the sight of OU-D
> hamburger and hot dog buns.

Peppridge Farm cookies are certified by the OU with a dairy designation.
Their breads, at least in New York, are not certified by the OU at all,
and just have a plain K.


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:18:59 -0400
Subject: Dairy Buns

As pointed out by a previous poster -- there are buns (such as potato
rolls) and others more specifically labeled as "hamburger" or "hot-dog"
buns that carry a hasgocha and are dairy.

Certainly, I can have peanut butter and jelly on a hot-dog bun -- but
that's stretching a point.

No doubt these products are formulated for a primarily non-Jewish market
-- but it still seems problematic.

Can anyone point to the "official" positions of those kashrut agencies
that provide hasgocha on products that might easily be used in error.

Carl A. Singer


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:24:51 -0400
Subject: Dairy Cake

> Believe it or not, in Skokie, the CRC (local vaad harabonim)
> won't allow kosher bakeries to bake anything dairy.  When we moved here
> from the NY area 12 years ago this was very surprising to us.  No kosher
> bakery cheese danish! 

Production of dairy products in bakeries has always been problematic --
many (most) vaads don't allow it -- primarily because in a small bakery
there is no separate "milichig" and "parve" operation -- the chance that
pans get switches, etc., is problematic.

This is tangential to the dairy cake issue, however -- dairy cakes may
be baked in large commercial establishments that produce only milchig
cakes -- the issue, I believe, is whether the consumer will "make a

Carl A. Singer


From: David and Toby Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:58:45 +0200
Subject: Re: Font Size in Siddur

From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>

>> This is also true re the comment on V'shamru in the Maariv service for 
>> Shabbat (Most congregations don't say this is the comment) and elsewhere.

>That is not the comment in the Rinat Yisrael Ashkenaz currently open in
front of me.

I think the original poster meant the Koren siddur which makes the
comment that most congregations don't say "V'Shamru", not Rinat Yisrael.


From: Robert Israel <israel@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Jewish source?

Stan Tenen wrote:

|I recently used a quote attributed to Jefferson (as presented in the
|film "1776").  The question arose as to whether there was a traditional
|source teaching that might have been the source of Jefferson's
|statement.  We couldn't think of it; perhaps someone on m-j knows.

Using Google, I found

which gives a fuller quote, and gives the reference as
"--Thomas Jefferson to Henry Lee, 1825. (ME 16:118)".

I doubt that Jefferson needed a "traditional source teaching"
to be the source of his statement.  He was quite capable of writing
such things by himself.

Robert Israel                                <israel@...>
Department of Mathematics        http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z2


From: Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:16:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Labelling dairy products clearly

Martin Stern <md.stern@...> writes:
> I have been campaigning for some time that dairy
>cakes served at kiddushim should be clearly indicated as such since
>some people daven earlier and eat their meat seudah before 'doing the
>rounds' to wish the many ba'alei simcha mazel tov, rather than ruin
>their appetites making them unable to eat what their wives have gone to
>such trouble to prepare.

Surely the solution is just to ask either the catering staff or the
ba'alei simchah rather than requiring an entire community or institution
to change its practice.  Or, if you can't get near enough to either
source of information due to the thronging hordes of cake eaters, just
assume that the cakes are milchik and limit yourself to a glezz'l
schnapps and a heartfelt mazal tov.

And while we're discussing the question of dairy cakes: finding good
quality non-dairy chocolate chips has become a problem here in Toronto
for some reason.  (Regrettably, I find that the pareve brands still
available taste 'waxy', sugary or otherwise off.)  If one bakes with
chocolate chips marked DE (dairy equipment), can one serve the resulting
cake or cookie after a meat meal? on meat plates?  (I would assume that
the pastry is cold.)  Since presumably the problem is that the chips
have been made in equipment with a notein ta'am of dairy and the chips
have been heated in the course of the baking, do they 'dairy-ize' the
whole item?

Kol tuv from
Shayna in Toronto


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:14:47 -0500
Subject: Re: non-Jews at a Seder

>One example I gave was how acceptable is it to have a non-Jew
>present at one's Seder table, when they can't say "We were slaves to
>Pharoah in Egypt", and nor may they partake of the Paschal Lamb
>(symbolised in our present inter-Temple times by the afikoman)?  My
>friends were not able to answer this, so does anyone have any comments
>on this point?
>Immanuel Burton.

         I feel it is incorrect to have non Jews at a seder, since a
seder is a re-creation of the birth of the Jewish people (keilu who
yatza memitzrayim).  However, to invite them to other Jewish
celebrations might be a positive act.


From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:17:29 EDT
Subject: Non-Jews at seder (was: Mixed Weddings)

I vaguely remember this question coming up many years ago, in connection
with planning a community seder at Hillel, and the Hillel rabbi (an
Orthodox rabbi) saying it was not a problem nowadays, only when there
was an actual korban pesach [paschal lamb]. In fact, for the same reason
that many haggadahs say not to point at the z'roa on the seder plate
when mentioning the korban pesach, I would think it might be assur to
tell someone that non-Jews cannot come to a seder because of the
symbolic eating of the korban pesach when eating the afikoman. It might
make people think that eating the afikoman is equivalent to eating the
real korban pesach, and make them forget that we are still awaiting
ge'ula and things are not as they should be.

I might also add that, after 3000 years, there is surely not a single
non-Jew in the world whose direct ancestors did not include slaves to
Pharaoh in Egypt who were freed at the time of the Exodus.

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 06:56:15 -0400
Subject: Siddur Layout

My own peeve with tachanun in siddurim is editions that expect you to
turn a page in the middle of it! That same R.Y. has it beautifully at
the start of a page in Shacharis, but wants me to juggle with one hand
at mincha. :-(

Many siddurs could use more "white space" and have more thoughtful page
breaks and better layout.  Certainly some newer siddurs (siddurim) make
it a point to do so -- others still have you turning a page during
tachnun and at other "awkward" places.

Carl A. Singer

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:08:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Siddur Layout

My "favorite" there is Havdala, where for some you have the kos (cup of
wine) in one hand, the havdala candle in the other hand, so you are now
looking for your third hand to turn the page.



From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:21:35 -0500
Subject: Re: "Unmarried Girls" [sic]

>From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
>I have a language request: please remember that it is disrespectful to
>call women 'girls' whether married or not.  Only very young females
>(i.e. below bat-mitzvah, or at the most high school age) should be
>called 'girls,' and you can never go wrong by just saying 'young women'
>in these cases anyway.

         While I usually agree with Leah's positions, here I am going to
disagree.  First, I don't mind being called a boy, so I would imagine
many (youngish) women may not mind being called girls.  Obviously if a
woman I know disagrees, I wouldn't call her that.  Second, at least
until recently it was common usage.  Just look at old TV shows like the
Honeymooners or I Love Lucy - Ethel and Lucy or Alice and Trixie often
referred to their husbands as "the boys" and vice versa.  This seems to
me an example of an epithet that a few vocal prominent leaders have
decided was insulting and therefore is not often used anymore.  Another
example is "African American" for Black.  I know white South Africans
who are now US citizens - no one calls them African Americans because
they are white!  And don't get me started on how homosexuals have
usurped the perfectly good English word "gay"!


End of Volume 44 Issue 25