Volume 44 Number 44
                    Produced: Thu Aug 26  5:33:14 EDT 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chumrot At Other's Expense (2)
         [<Shuanoach@...>, Akiva Miller]
Drinking Coffee and Beer as Stam Yeinam
ebay and Shabbat (4)
         [Jacob Sasson, D. Rabinowitz, Stuart Cohnen, Janice Gelb]
Fake Marriage
         [Ed Greenberg]
Non-Jews at a Seder
         [Eliezer Wenger]
Stroller Clarification / Eruv
         [Chana Luntz]
Yirat Shamayim
         [Shimon Lebowitz]


From: <Shuanoach@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:42:54 EDT
Subject: Re: Chumrot At Other's Expense

Martin Stern wrote:
>Resh Yod Vav probably is Rabbi Ya'akov Weill, a contemporary of the

Though i haven't checked siman 345, this abbreviation often refers to
Rabbeinu Yerucham as well.  (In his sefer Toldot Adam ve-Havah.)


From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:11:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Chumrot At Other's Expense

S. Wise wrote 

>In my opinion, out of respect for her husband, she should abide by his
>custom when it comes to anything halachic.  To do otherwise is to
>minimize the role of the husband/father when it comes to determining the
>derech of the home, which traditional is the male figures. What does it
>show the children, if the mother departs from the father's custom--...?

But he can't be a dictator. He needs to respect her as well, and take
her into account. This shows the children that there is love and respect
in the family. And it shows them that just as our family can have
different minhagim than other families, without anyone being "wrong", so
too can the parents have slightly different practices. (This can and
will work, as long as no one loses perspective; these differences are
indeed slight.)

>when I got married I adopted my wife's minhag of eating cholov
>yisroel. Several years earlier I heard an engaged couple discussing this
>issue, and I was appalled to hear the kallah, who didn't want to adopt
>chalav yisroel, say, "I'll have my dairy products and he'll have his."

When I was engaged, neither I nor my wife-to-be ate only cholov yisroel,
but it was something that I wanted to take on once we did get
married. My wife opposed this, but once she explained to me how the lack
of easy-to-get cholov yisroel ingredients would make it difficult for
her to prepare meals, I backed down.

(Before anyone jumps on me, let me say that from what I have seen, no
matter where you shop, the selection of cholov yisroel products is more
limited and more expensive than the others. Yes, one can manage with
what is available, but this will be more difficult for some, and less
difficult for others, depending on the circumstances.)

I must say that I have been very bothered by this whole thread. Several
people have referred to "a husband who lets his wife carry in the eruv",
or words similar to that. Why has no one wrote about what the wife lets
her husband do?

This onesidedness is very troubling to me. It really makes it sound like
the husband is does whatever he wants, and dictates to his wife what she
may or may not do. Why has no one suggested that it is the wife who
*lets* her husband refrain from carrying in the eruv?

When the eruv in our town, Elizabeth NJ, was erected twenty years ago,
our rav, Rabbi Pinchas M. Teitz zt"l made a point to be seen carrying on
that first Shabbos, so that people would know to have confidence in the
eruv's validity. Thereafter, however, he chose to be strict on himself
and refrain from carrying. This is true leadership, knowing when to be
strict and when to be lenient. If someone wants to be faithful to <<<
the role of the husband/father when it comes to determining the derech
of the home >>>, I suggest that he can refrain from carrying on a usual
basis, but if he sees his wife struggling under an unusually heavy load,
he should offer to help out.

Akiva Miller


From: <Shuanoach@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:57:18 EDT
Subject: Drinking Coffee and Beer as Stam Yeinam

JBackon noted that Rambam forbids drinking sheichar/beer where it is sold
by the non-Jews.

EReich mentioned a Rosh (though i don't know how that Rosh gets one
around the psak in the shulchan arukh 104:1).

For a long time i have wondered about a similar problem. Many Jews buy
and then drink coffee where it is sold (by non-Jews). I am unsure of how
this is justified (other than the fact the many seem to do it and i have
not heard it called problematic). See Pischei Teshuva on Yoreh De'ah
104:1. Is this discussed anywhere by poskim (in teshuvos, etc.)?



From: Jacob Sasson <jacobsasson@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:46:13 -0400
Subject: ebay and Shabbat

 Carl Singer <casinger@...>  writes:

>I recently saw the article discussing Rabbi Heineman's halachik rulings
>internet business on Shabbos.  Interestingly it refers back to the
>situation where people owned vending machines.

>Here's a new twist / question.  Consider Ebay -- some auctions last for
>several days.  Well -- what happens if there's a 5-day auction starting
>on Thursday -- the auction will not end until Tuesday, but depending on
>what and when others bid, my bid may ratchet up on Shabbos.

Rabbi Heinemann's heter was based on the fact that web transactions on
shabbat are not actaully registered on saturday and thus there is no
kinyan kesef until monday.  therefore, you dont have mekach umemkar.
ratcheting up a bid on shabbat lacks the requisite kinyan kesef.

Jacob Sasson

From: D. Rabinowitz <rwdnick@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:58:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ebay and Shabbat

In regards to using Ebay on Shabbat see the latest issue of the Journal
Ohr Yisrael where there is an article by R. Oberlander that discusses in
great detail all the problems and solutions with this and selling on the
internet generally. The article is excellent and covers such topics as
"sniping" on ebay, the use of website and credit card. The article
covers this in comprehensive detail. There are other articles in the
same edition however, the authors do not understand how the internet,
credit card transations or ebay works.

Dan Rabinowitz

From: Stuart Cohnen <cohnen@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:00:17 -0400
Subject: ebay and Shabbat

I recently discussed this question with the maggid shiur I go to on
Hilchos Shabbos. His feeling is that the actual transaction "mekach
u'memchar" does not take place when your bid rachets up, since you may
not be the winner. The better question is when you are the seller or
buyer and the bidding ends on Shabbos. Here too, he feels, that the
transaction does not take place until later, when credit card numbers/
paypal account numbers are exchanged. This would not take place on

What is missing from the WSJ article (and way beyond the scope of the
article in a secular newspaper) is what happens on Yom Tov? Given that
Rabbi Heinemann allows e-commerce sites on Shabbos, since the Fed is
closed and the batching of transcations does not occur until Monday,
what about when the commerce happens on a weekday that is Yom Tov? The
same question happens with stock exchange transactions etc...  For their
credit, B and H Photo (bhphotovideo.com, I've been told, shuts down
their ecommerce site on Shabbos and Yom Tov.

Stuart Cohnen

From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: ebay and Shabbat

Seems to me that you've already placed your maximum bid before
Shabbos. You're not "spending" any more money than you have already
"spent" by entering your maximum bid of $30.

(As for auctions ending on Shabbos, you wouldn't get the item anyway
because people always swoop in at the last 30 seconds or so :-> )

-- Janice


From: Ed Greenberg <edg@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:19:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Fake Marriage

> Why don't the couple get married in September? They will have to forgo,
> perhaps, some of the frills of a wedding in January but, after all, what
> are the couple's priorities?

Question: Once they halachically marry, aren't they then obligated to
begin to start a family?

Perhaps it's too early in their life situation for that.



From: Eliezer Wenger <ewenger@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:37:54 -0400
Subject: Non-Jews at a Seder

 Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...> commented to my
posting : In Mail.Jewish v44n30, Eliezer Wenger wrote: There are also
many Halachic problems with inviting non-Jews to any Yom Tov meal which
do not exist when inviting them for Shabbos meals. See Kitzur Shulchan
Aruch 98:36 for starters. He writes< As I understand the Kitzur Shulchan
Aruch 98:36, it is indeed forbidden to cook for a non-Jew on Yom Tov.
However, that paragraph concludes by saying that one may give to an
ordinary non-Jew from the food that one has prepared for oneself.  An
ordinary non-Jew is one who is not distinguished, and I would guess that
that would include most non-Jews.>

I specifically used the word "for starters." I decided to quote the
Kitzur since more people have that at home and is more readily available
in English than full sets of Shulchan Aruch. For further details one
must delve more into the matter. My main point was to prove that it was
Halachically problemetic. Now that you bring the matter up, let me
clarify that what the Kitzur says is only if the ordinary non-Jew comes
on his own. Even an ordinary non-Jew may not be invited and urgerd to
come. Basically before anyone wants to have non-Jews over for a Yom Tov
meal they should consult with a competent Rav.

Eliezer Wenger


From: Chana Luntz <Chana@...>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:44:28 +0100
Subject: Stroller Clarification / Eruv

Leah Gordon writes:

>What about the option of the husband choosing to stay home with the
>child(ren) so the wife goes out?  That is *equally* sensible to the
>option everyone is talking about, i.e. the wife at home.

What if the wife is breastfeeding/nursing?  All the medical literature
recommends breastfeeding in many cases up to a year (by which time many
children are walking) - so this is most of the period we are discussing.

Remember of course that one cannot express milk on shabbas, so even to
leave a baby with an expressed bottle makes for a fair amount of long
range planning - and also adds an added burden on the wife, to take the
time out of her busy week to express as well as to give the baby its
regular feeds(and in my experience, one may if very busy/stressed not
have enough to express - in the case of my second one, I couldn't manage
to express until around five months, and by then he flat out refused to
take a bottle).

It is far simpler and more pleasant (and gives the woman far more
freedom) to be able to take baby with her (on the assumption she can
always find somewhere private to nurse) than to leave him behind.  I can
only recall the first time I left my oldest - he was about a month old
and we left him with my parents and went off to a shabbas kiddush, and
must have only been gone an hour and a quarter.  But despite him having
fed right before we left, he apparently screamed the entire time, and
nothing my parents could do would comfort him - we came home to see them
standing waiting at the front door, with the baby screaming his head
off, and he only quietened after he latched on and fed like there was no
tomorrow.  It was months and months before I was prepared to leave him
again shabbas or weekday.

Forcing a mother to choose between parting with her baby and not going
out is just as much a form of hardship - particularly in those early
"bonding" months, availability of paternal (or other -
grandparental/paid, these are also options) childcare not withstanding.



From: <shimonl@...> (Shimon Lebowitz)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:44:03 EDT
Subject: Yirat Shamayim

Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...> said:
> Shmuel Himelstein quoted someone else <<< He said that the problem of our
> generation is that everyone is afraid of what the other person will say.
> They even have a name for this phenomenon: they call it "Yir'at Shamayim"
> I disagree.
> Yir'as Shamayim is not fear of what he (with a lower-case h) will
> say. It is fear of what He (with an upper-case H) will say.

Perhaps I misunderstood R' Shmuel, but I took his words to be tongue in
cheek, that those who in truth are interested in what others (people!)
will think of them, *call* this (wrongly, of course) Yir'at Shamayim.

So, *if* that was correct, then you don't "disagree" at all, do you? :-)

On the other hand, it is possible that he meant it in the sense that
Rabban (or Rabbi, in the source: Brachot 28b) Yochanan ben Zakai said
it: "shetehei mora shamayim aleichem kemora basar vadam" - may you fear
Heaven as much as you fear man, that people naturally worry more about
others seeing their wrongdoing than about G-d. This implies that fearing
what "he" (a person) will see, is a natural component of our Yir'at

And would you "disagree" with that?

I hope the author of the comment will clarify for us. :)

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


End of Volume 44 Issue 44